[debussyl]

IMP pair game. East deals. NS vul.

Auction started like this:

East opened 1c (I think EW plays sayc or 2/1), your pard overcalled 1d, West x. You were North, holding Ax-xx-Qxxxx-xxxx. What would you bid and why?

[Free]

I would pass (a while ago I would definetly bid a high amount of ♦s). If you hide the ♦ support, you can sacrifice later against game scores, but more important, you won't push them in slam as easily as after supporting ♦s! The only alternative imo is psyching a Major suit (1♠ might just turn out great).

[inquiry]

I wouldn't worry about pushing them into slam, i ahve a sure spade trick on this auction, and partner over called 1♦ vul, so surely he has a trick outside of diamonds. There is a good concept you should follow.... a 1D bid eats of no space, as it excludes no suits... so the advantage of overcalling light is reduced.. .so in general a 1D overcall is almost always at least reasonable values.

Here is what most my partner and i do here...

1C-1D-X-?
  3D = competitive
  2NT = very preemptive or Game force with diamonds
  rdbl = actually shows 4+ hearts, generally balanced
  1H = actually shows spades
  1S = balanced hand unsuit for NT or mild diamond raise
  1NT = natural
  2C = 5+ hearts, not balanced
  2D = 5+ spades, not balanced
  2H/2S = fit jumps for diamonds
  3C = constructive diamond raise

This hand is just worth the 3D competitive but weak raise....

Note the ways you can raise diamonds (all in bold). Having multiple ways to show suppport (and quality, stregnth of the support) is very useful so we have harnshed a lot of bids to show support hands early in competition. A couple words of caution on this approach. 1) you can use the 1S bid to raise diamonds to the 2 level if you don;t feel safe at the three level. .. 2) Use 2NT as preemptive raise only with very bad hands, as if your partner is strong, you have wrongsided the NT contract. He has to have some funny monster to bid 3NT directly over that.... this hand is too strong for the 2NT raise.

[han]

3D for me too. I wouldn't worry about missing 3NT.

[whereagles]

Yup. 3D for me too.

[joker_gib]

Yes, 3♦ seems OK !

[flytoox]

Free, on Feb 16 2005, 04:12 AM, said:

I would pass (a while ago I would definetly bid a high amount of ♦s). If you hide the ♦ support, you can sacrifice later against game scores, but more important, you won't push them in slam as easily as after supporting ♦s! The only alternative imo is psyching a Major suit (1♠ might just turn out great).

Free I hope you never sacrifice red vs white.

[flytoox]

3D looks good to me. This gives opp no space for invitation.

[debussyl]

Remember this is a casual partnership (actually first time playing together).

Here are a few of my qestions about 3D raise:

1. Would you do the same with something like xxx-x-Qxxxx-xxxx (or slightly stronger, and some may even do it with the actual hand but missing the sA)? Don't you think this hand could be a little too strong for 3D ( I treasure the sA)?

2. What do you think West most likely have by X? Are you clear about your pard's holding yet after his 1D overcall? Do you want to know more about his hand?

3. What do you think East know what his pard's holdling is up to the X? Do you or East have a better idea about West's holding up to the X? Does East have a better idea about his pard's holding after your 3D?

4. Therefore, in my opinion, this 3D raise simply gives all the information your opps (especially East) need to make a good decision, and leaves no room for your pard to describe his/her holding. In essence, both you and your pard are left in blind, since you do not know what your pard has, and your pard does not know what you have. I do not think that is what preempt is supposed to do.

[han]

At these colors, I play that you need to have some stuff for 3D. I would assume that this is understood even in a casual partnership.

If you think that 3D can't hurt the opponents then you haven't been preempted enough yet!

[inquiry]

debussyl, on Feb 16 2005, 02:53 PM, said:

Remember this is a casual partnership (actually first time playing together).

In a casual partnership, you are on your own. A jump to 3♦? He might play as strong or weaker than what you hold. With an unknown partner who and no bidding agreement, I bid 2♦

However, you title and in particular the subtitle "how to get your message across suggested not a casual partnership but an attempt to find different ideas. This is the reason for my earlier reply....to share what I play with a few partners

Quote

Here are a few of my qestions about 3D raise:

1. Would you do the same with something like xxx-x-Qxxxx-xxxx (or slightly stronger, and some may even do it with the actual hand but missing the sA)? Don't you think this hand could be a little too strong for 3D ( I treasure the sA)?

Indeed you are coorect to value the spade ACE. In fact, this is why I separate a 3♦ "preempt" from a 2NT "preempt". With the hand without the spade ACE, I would bid 3♦ with these partners as a despirately weak preempt. I use the immediate 3♦ as a preempt but with values (like this hand). The concept is that over the 2NT bid, my hand has to be so weak partner will not consider playing 3NT (since with a good hand we will have wrong-sided it). That is the message of the 2NT preemptive raise. The 3♦ preemptive raise, however, shows some values, so if you catch your partner with a very strong hand that is encouraged by a preemptive raise, he will catch you with values. This works VERY WELL.. particularily since you can graft onto the weak 2NT jump, all true GAME FORCE raises (you simply bid again or double later in the auction).

Quote

2. What do you think West most likely have by X? Are you clear about your pard's holding yet after his 1D overcall? Do you want to know more about his hand?

I don't know what WEST has for his double.. people double on all kinds of things these days. No I don't want to explore partners hand, I want to describe mine, and 3♦ is perfect for this. If partner needs a spade stopper for notrump he will bid 3♥ over 3♦. Here I can perfectly describe my hand while preempting the opponents.

Quote

3. What do you think East know what his pard's holdling is up to the X? Do you or East have a better idea about West's holding up to the X? Does East have a better idea about his pard's holding after your 3D?

Who knows again. MAybe they play this double shows both major (most likely), or perhaps one major and club support but not too strong. After my 3♦ he will know his partner is short in diamonds... but if I pass and WEST bids a major, his partner will surely let him know about the diamond shortness anyway, and they will have found their best fit to boot. 3♦ may lead to an ackward auction for them. West might strech to bid 3 of a major and they get to four of a major down. Or West might bid 3 of a major with a good hand but East think it is competititve and pass. Or West with both majors might jump to 4 of a major, and EAST with other major and modest clubs might be afraid to bid an icy 4♠ out of fear his partner will think he has more legnth, and will correct to 5♣... Or west may have a major, but not enough points to bid at the three level and he will pass, over this pass, EAST has to decide if his partner is all clubs and no major fit when it maybe by far better for him to pass, or his partner may have a major but not enough value, and he has to compete. IF East guess wrong he will get a poor result (say he double only to hear his partner bid 4C where your fourth club coiuld be a problem for them in a forcing game, or 3NT where your spade ace and long diamonds will toast them. Which of these might happen is too worrry about, simply apply the dagger to their throats with 3♦, which helps your constructvie bidding and it hinders theirs..forcing the last guess onto them. You can't ask for more.

Quote

4. Therefore, in my opinion, this 3D raise simply gives all the information your opps (especially East) need to make a good decision, and leaves no room for your pard to describe his/her holding. In essence, both you and your pard are left in blind, since you do not know what your pard has, and your pard does not know what you have. I do not think that is what preempt is supposed to do.

Here I disagree completely. Let's imagine you do something tame like pass... WEST can do the follwoing...

(1C)-1D-(X)-Pass
? ?

• Bid one of a major. East (who knows he is short in diamonds) knows his partner is minimum
  
• Jump to 2 of a major, East knows his partner has extra values
  
• Cue-bid 2diamonds or jump cue=ibid looking for fit, East konws his partner streght and in the case of jump cue-bid, that it is his partner who is short in diamonds
  
• Rebid 2C, East knows his partner doesn't have a major and he probabbly should stay out of the auction

IF you pass, they will have a constructive and descriptive auction. IMHO, passing here is simply losing bridge.

[debussyl]

Of course I would never pass with this hand. Why cannot we have 5D?

I rate 4D raise as #1, if with a regular pard (based on LTT). Also this 4D is invitational under this circumstance. As Inquiry correctly pointed out in his first post, my pard's 1D cannot be too weak so the risk of raising to 4D is justified -- especially in an IMP game.

With a casual pard(without knowing what 1D means), I simply bid 2D (leave 3D for weaker hand), and wait to hear whether my pard has anything else to say.

This is what happened actually:

1c--(1d)--x --(3d)
4d--(pass)-4s-all pass

4S down 1, and we got -6 something IMP.

With South holding Kxx-x-AKxxx-KQxx, I chose to pass, based on pard's weak hand (3D). Even if I double (or should I?) instead of pass, do you think N would bid 5D (or X), instead of pass?

[inquiry]

debussyl, on Feb 16 2005, 04:31 PM, said:

1c--(1d)--x --(3d)
4d--(pass)-4s-all pass

4S down 1, and we got -6 something IMP.

With South holding Kxx-x-AKxxx-KQxx, I chose to pass, based on pard's weak hand (3D). Even if I double (or should I?) instead of pass, do you think N would bid 5D (or X), instead of pass?

As expected, south has a good hand. This means that down one for them (+50 or or even down two +100) is probably going to cost you some imps, and if they make, it could be more imps. As for you, you will make 5♦ if clubs are 3-2 (ace on side), you are down in 5♦ even if they fail to find their ruff if clubs when clubs are 4-1. At any other vul, I would bid 5♦ with this hand instead of invite partners participation.

The way invite partners participation is over 4♦, I double. This is not a lead directing double, because odds are GREAT I will not be lead. Nor is this a penalty double, since they are not staying in diamonds. This is an invite to game double Asking partner to do something intellegent, as it relates to defend or press on to game. After this double, with south's hand, I would likely double 4♠, but not bid 5♦. 1) I don't have a sixth diamond, 2) I have a sure trick in the spade ace. Partner with two spades to king and stiff heart, might just pull this double, playing you for spade ace or club ace for this double. But a double here gives them a chance to redouble and they may find their heart fit instead of the poorer spade fit.

Now what north does with his 2-2-5-4 hand with 6 hcp over 4♠ is a question. The way I play the jump to 3♦, this is a minimum holding... especially vul, accepting the game try seems so much out of the question. However, when they bid 4♠ after north doubled, I might be tempted to double, after all I have a sure trump trick. If partner starts ♦A the low heart, we might get 1♣, 2♠, 1♦, 1♥ ruff for down two.