[eagles123]

Partner in first seat opens 1NT 12-14 R/R MP pass to you. you bid stayman and P bids 2D. Now how many no trumps?

your hand:

AKQ2
AK98
T
A987

[ahydra]

4NT, though very close to just bidding 6. If partner comes back with 5NT I'll raise.

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

6/7♣ is quite likely to be good when the limits in NT are lower (try Jxx, Jx, Axxx, KQJx for example, 11 in NT, will make 13 in clubs a lot of the time). If I have a means of locating a 4-4 club fit I'll use it here, for us 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ is minor suit stayman.

[eagles123]

Do you have to put your own clever system in every damn post? just feels every time anyone makes a topic you want to show off rather than help

[Cyberyeti]

 eagles123, on 2014-June-03, 09:32, said:

Do you have to put your own clever system in every damn post? just feels every time anyone makes a topic you want to show off rather than help

Other people have other bids which accomplish the same thing (some would show the stiff diamond, what are 3any and 4m for you ?), I'm not showing off, I'm just saying I would not look for NT yet as if partner has 4 clubs, it's very unlikely to be the right spot.

[aguahombre]

 eagles123, on 2014-June-03, 09:32, said:

Do you have to put your own clever system in every damn post? just feels every time anyone makes a topic you want to show off rather than help

IMO, when the answer to the OP's question --given the OP's methods or lack thereof ---is being covered, it is quite o.k. to share methods for others to consider, accept, or reject for their own partnerships. It is a bonus; and unlike some other posters, I don't believe Cyber's intent is to show off (although I would rather keep delayed Texas and Smolen).

Many players have the ability to combine quantitative inquires with a probe for alternate strain. I have found many who differentiate between 4S quantitative and 4NT quantitative in similar situations to invite an alternate minor-suit slam.

Indeed, 4S is an otherwise idle bid after:
1N-2C
2D-?...which we would do well to consider using to confirm or deny possible minor strain interest.

[Fluffy]

I would also try to find the club fit, it looks like clubs will play better most of the time, I'd even consider bid 3♣ showing 5+ rather than blasting, but its close.

But for the question, I bid 6NT if I can't find clubs. This is above average 20 count, the slam opposite 12 will rarely be cold, but most often it will have a combination of chances.

[whereagles]

We got 32-34 HCP.

Seems like an easy 6NT to me.

Trying for 7 is nice but do we have gadgets for it? No? Then stick to 6NT.

[kenrexford]

This could be a fun hand to bid like a crazy person. If I am going to blast 6NT, why not F around first?

Suppose Smolen is available. I could try 3♠, hoping that partner has a doubleton heart. If he does not, I can blast 6NT. But, what if he does?

1NT-2♣

2♦-3♠

3NT-?

At this point, I know that partner has 8+ cards in the minors. I also found out that partner has a doubleton heart, meaning a cover for my losers if he has a club fit.

I also have made it impossible for partner to play me for five clubs.

So, I could now bid 4♣. Partner will expect me to have 4504 pattern. He will be wrong. That said, he won't support clubs without four of them. So, this way I find out about the club fit, or at least he does.

This sequence will then allow one of us to locate the King and Queen of clubs, which is a good thing. The problem, however, is that he will expect a club void.

But, maybe I could have 4-5-1-3 shape? I'm not sure how anyone else handles this sequence, and I am damned sure not telling what I do. But, this is OK if I can have 4513, because then partner can find out that I don't have the diamond Ace or void, and I probably want a 9-fit anyway.




Could be interesting...

[wanoff]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 09:28, said:

6/7♣ is quite likely to be good when the limits in NT are lower (try Jxx, Jx, Axxx, KQJx for example, 11 in NT, will make 13 in clubs a lot of the time). If I have a means of locating a 4-4 club fit I'll use it here, for us 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ is minor suit stayman.

It's a bit naughty of eagles to go off on one when you're simply looking for a 4-4 fit. Why didn't he just bid 1N-6N?
I prefer to use 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥ as 6H/4S invitational and so this hand is a clear case for Baron(2♦-2♥-2♠).

[Trinidad]

 eagles123, on 2014-June-03, 09:32, said:

Do you have to put your own clever system in every damn post? just feels every time anyone makes a topic you want to show off rather than help

This is uncalled for...

Basically the answer to your question is that it would not occur to me to think of bidding any amount of NT. Just like Cyberyeti, I would search for the club fit. It is quite obvious that it is not really relevant how you and your partner do that. But it should be even more obvious that you do not commit to any number of no trump before you have investigated a club fit. Somewhere between 2♦ and x NT you should have a bid for that.

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

 wanoff, on 2014-June-03, 12:47, said:

It's a bit naughty of eagles to go off on one when you're simply looking for a 4-4 fit. Why didn't he just bid 1N-6N?
I prefer to use 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥ as 6H/4S invitational and so this hand is a clear case for Baron(2♦-2♥-2♠).

Everybody has different methods here, for us 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠ is just 5+♥/4♠ F1.

Quote

Suppose Smolen is available.

A general question though to Americans who play a weak no trump, is there any point in playing Smolen over a weak NT ? as the major benefit of playing the resulting contract from the strong hand doesn't apply.

[kenrexford]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 13:36, said:

A general question though to Americans who play a weak no trump, is there any point in playing Smolen over a weak NT ? as the major benefit of playing the resulting contract from the strong hand doesn't apply.

Not relevant. Same auction applies if Smolen not available. You just bid 3♥ instead.

[Zelandakh]

Can I not continue with 2♠ Baron? When I played regular Stayman it was how I handled hands of this type. If we do not have Baron sequences available, perhaps we should invest in 3-suited jump responses. With Baron, after 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠, Opener bids 2NT with a minimum or their cheapest 4 card suit with a maximum. If 2NT then 3♣ is natural and game forcing; if 3♣ then we can just key card; if 3♦ then 6NT.

Playing second round Texas transfers, some use a 4♠ rebid over 2♦ for the same purpose with the same follow-up structure. Agaian that would allow us to find a potentially better club slam.

In EBU Modern Acol the immediate 2♠ response is Baron and should be preferred to 2♣ on this hand type.

Assuming nothing clever we have a problem. I rate this hand as 21 so we want to be in slam absent further distributional information. Hence 4NT is out for me. So what are the choices? Well we could blast 6NT but that seems a little precipitous. We could bid clubs but partner will support with 3 and we may not be able to differentiate, while playing in a 4-3 fit on that suit might be awkward. So the only real option seems to be to follow Ken's example and sell the hand as 5-4 majors. Except that I think I prefer to sell the hand as 5♠-4♥ because that chunky AKQx suit might protect us a little if things do end up going off the rails.

In any case, to answer any NT question we have to know the system in play. There is no standard so it is difficult without reference to your own methods. What would an immediate 2♠ response have been eagles? Perhaps there is an alternative within your own system that you have not considered.

[Cyberyeti]

In the UK, certainly in club bridge with a weak NT, 1N-2♣-2♦-2♠ is almost always a bad hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts.

1N-2♠ varies, I've seen it played as baron, 11 points (you bid 2N with 12), weak t/o into either minor, clubs or (weak with one minor or GF with both).

[neilkaz]

Lacking a gadget and having 3 aces I'd just blast 6NT after Stayman.

[EricK]

If partner plays the hands well I'll bid 6NT; if he plays badly, I'll look, for the ♣ fit

[Trump Echo]

(delete post)

[fromageGB]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 09:28, said:

6/7♣ is quite likely to be good when the limits in NT are lower (try Jxx, Jx, Axxx, KQJx for example, 11 in NT, will make 13 in clubs a lot of the time). If I have a means of locating a 4-4 club fit I'll use it here, for us 1N-2♣-2♦-3♥ is minor suit stayman.

Thanks cyber, it's good to hear of ideas that might not be considered as standard, makes you pick on holes in your own methods and try to plug them. I have no MSS after stayman, and while I play strong NT and smolen, I'll suggest we use a 3♦ rebid for MSS, as this is going spare at the moment for us.

It certainly helps to hear of other takes and ideas around a topic. A saner response than the raw numeric requested, and indeed the poster surely welcomed such a reply by the inclusion of a "something else" category that obviously needs explanation if chosen.

[fromageGB]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-June-03, 13:36, said:

A general question though to Americans who play a weak no trump, is there any point in playing Smolen over a weak NT ? as the major benefit of playing the resulting contract from the strong hand doesn't apply.

If a non-American may reply, then I think the point of it (if you have the bids not otherwise utilised) is that if the 5-3 major fit is found, it is better played by the hand that has longer minors to receive the lead.