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ACBL has it wrong? Alert Reg

#21 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 19:20

And another thing: The general spirit of "full disclosure" is that there should be a level playing field. If I respond to a bid as if it normally shows 3 cards, then the opponents are on the same same level as we are if they do so as well. While I might know that a 2-card suit is possible, I don't cater to it. So even if the opponents don't know about the possiibility, they aren't disadvantaged in any way as a result -- I"m not doing anything useful with the additional knowledge.

#22 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 19:22

View Postbillw55, on 2014-July-29, 11:50, said:

From the title, I thought this thread would have only one word.

My reaction to the title was "So what else is new?"

#23 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 19:52

View Postbiggerclub, on 2014-July-29, 22:22, said:

Much like my partners who insist (playing 2/1) on checking 4+ for expected length. No . . . we regularly and systematically open 1 on 4-4-3-2.

oh i hate that, i have a couple of p who check 4 but open on 3
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#24 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 14:37

so I use "check four" (it is *expected minimum length* after all) but with a big arrow pointing towards 3. Similarly for my 3/4 seat major openings; they "promise five" but "could be 4", and I hope the check-and-arrow gets the point across.
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#25 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 17:11

Just started a new partnership with, well, a novice. He insists he would never open a major on four, or overcall on four, whatever seat he's in. If he agrees that I can open on four in third or fourth seat or overcall 4 if I want, how do we mark the card? Are we playing different systems? Are the choices here limited to 1) Nobody ever opens in 3rd/4th seat on 4, 2) as 1, but sometimes I might open on 4 if I feel like it, 3) try to get partner to agree that we might open on 4, 4) dissolve the partnership?
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#26 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 19:04

View Postbarmar, on 2014-July-30, 19:20, said:

And another thing: The general spirit of "full disclosure" is that there should be a level playing field. If I respond to a bid as if it normally shows 3 cards, then the opponents are on the same same level as we are if they do so as well. While I might know that a 2-card suit is possible, I don't cater to it. So even if the opponents don't know about the possiibility, they aren't disadvantaged in any way as a result -- I"m not doing anything useful with the additional knowledge.
In other contexts (e.g. psychs), law-makers take the realistic view that you may not have an illegal understanding even if you claim that you don't cater for it.

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-July-31, 17:11, said:

Just started a new partnership with, well, a novice. He insists he would never open a major on four, or overcall on four, whatever seat he's in. If he agrees that I can open on four in third or fourth seat or overcall 4 if I want, how do we mark the card? Are we playing different systems? Are the choices here limited to 1) Nobody ever opens in 3rd/4th seat on 4, 2) as 1, but sometimes I might open on 4 if I feel like it, 3) try to get partner to agree that we might open on 4, 4) dissolve the partnership?
Interesting quandary. I guess that asymmetric systems are commoner than players admit.
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#27 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 22:21

Leaving it to OPPs to voluntarily bring up the question creates all kinds of UI and active ethical issues. IMO

"How many clubs does 2 promise?" "Oh, really? How many is it usually?"
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#28 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 23:20

A bid is not a promise. It is certainly not a promise to opponents.
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#29 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-August-01, 10:57

View Postmycroft, on 2014-July-31, 14:37, said:

so I use "check four" (it is *expected minimum length* after all) but with a big arrow pointing towards 3. Similarly for my 3/4 seat major openings; they "promise five" but "could be 4", and I hope the check-and-arrow gets the point across.

What is your systemic agreement to open when your hand is 4=4=3=2? If you're expected to open 1, then I think you should check 3. The "check and arrow" seems more appropriate for the situation where you normally open with X, but sometimes (too often to call it a psyche) deviate with Y, but it's not a systemic requirement, just a judgement call.

The 4 checkbox for diamonds should mostly be used only by pairs that play that 1 "could be short", because they open 1 with 4=4=3=2 hands.

#30 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2014-August-01, 13:33

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-July-31, 17:11, said:

Just started a new partnership with, well, a novice. He insists he would never open a major on four, or overcall on four, whatever seat he's in. If he agrees that I can open on four in third or fourth seat or overcall 4 if I want, how do we mark the card? Are we playing different systems? Are the choices here limited to 1) Nobody ever opens in 3rd/4th seat on 4, 2) as 1, but sometimes I might open on 4 if I feel like it, 3) try to get partner to agree that we might open on 4, 4) dissolve the partnership?


There are two separate questions: "Are we allowed to play this?" and "What should we put on the convention card?"

The second one ie easy: you find a way to mark the card in a way that discloses your agreement. There's probably enough space on that part of the ACBL card to write something like "Depends" or "Please ask". Or you could tick both boxes, which would probably provoke a question if anyone wanted to know the answer.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#31 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-August-01, 20:20

View Postgnasher, on 2014-August-01, 13:33, said:

Or you could tick both boxes, which would probably provoke a question if anyone wanted to know the answer.

It might, if anyone ever looked at the card. B-)
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#32 User is offline   Manastorm 

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Posted 2014-August-02, 01:41

What would happen, if the same sequence of bids come twice, but shifted by 2 seats. The first time you find out that it is 5 and the second time you dont ask expecting 5, but it is actually usually 5. Maybe during the 1st time the word always is mentioned several times. So you make the wrong assumption when you declare. You ask opponents what is going on, they shrug and say you should ask the meaning of the bid, you oppose and say you heard it once before, they shrug again so we have different styles.
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#33 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-August-02, 21:36

Choices like this are usually considered to be style, not system. It's not uncommon that one member of a partnership is more aggressive than the other.

#34 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-August-02, 22:23

During the clarification period: "please explain your auction, including pertinent style". ("Please explain your auction" should be enough, but I don't trust people to know and act on that).
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#35 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-August-03, 03:33

You have an auction that goes 2-All Pass. Or P-(P)-1-(P)-2-All Pass. In what universe will an opponent bother asking "Please explain the auction"? Should players always ask about these routine auctions, just in case they'll get the information that opener frequently opens weak 2 with 5-card suits or is more likely than most to open a 4-card major in 3rd seat.

#36 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2014-August-03, 03:39

Which reminds me of something that happened last week in Vegas.

I was playing with someone I only see at nationals. He has what I consider a pretty free-wheeling style, and I asked him to try to rein it in when we were playing in the NABC+ Fast Pairs.

At some point I decided to open a 5-card weak 2, and I think we ended up with a bad result after he raised me. At the end of the hand, he said "I thought we agreed not to do that". Me: "No, we agreed that you wouldn't do that."

#37 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2014-September-13, 20:10

View Postmycroft, on 2014-July-31, 14:37, said:

so I use "check four" (it is *expected minimum length* after all) but with a big arrow pointing towards 3. Similarly for my 3/4 seat major openings; they "promise five" but "could be 4", and I hope the check-and-arrow gets the point across.


View Postbarmar, on 2014-August-01, 10:57, said:

What is your systemic agreement to open when your hand is 4=4=3=2? If you're expected to open 1, then I think you should check 3. The "check and arrow" seems more appropriate for the situation where you normally open with X, but sometimes (too often to call it a psyche) deviate with Y, but it's not a systemic requirement, just a judgement call.The 4 checkbox for diamonds should mostly be used only by pairs that play that 1 "could be short", because they open 1 with 4=4=3=2 hands.


Here's a place where I can help, as per the ACBL, if you open 1 on 3 ONLY if it's exactly 4432, then you actually checkmark the 3 box, but have an arrow pointing at the 4 box.

As for the Major, it doesn't directly say, but I tend to check 4 in 3rd/4th, but use the arrow to point to the 5.
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#38 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-September-13, 21:16

That's an interesting guide, chase, but it doesn't look to me like regulation. Can it be located from the acbl main page, without a search (which will, I'm sure, turn up pages that are no longer valid)?

The page doesn't seem to have a date on it either - and it refers to the "new" convention card. When was it "new"? I've seen only a couple of minor changes over the last 20 years or so.
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#39 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2014-September-14, 01:37

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-September-13, 21:16, said:

That's an interesting guide, chase, but it doesn't look to me like regulation. Can it be located from the acbl main page, without a search (which will, I'm sure, turn up pages that are no longer valid)?

The page doesn't seem to have a date on it either - and it refers to the "new" convention card. When was it "new"? I've seen only a couple of minor changes over the last 20 years or so.

Off topic: This reminds me of a tale from a computer installation in the old days when weekly backup from disks to magnetic tape was the routine. Disks were small and expensive so one tape was sufficient to hold all data they had on disks.

They had a pile of backuptapes all labelled "Last backup"!
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#40 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2014-September-14, 04:37

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-September-13, 21:16, said:

That's an interesting guide, chase, but it doesn't look to me like regulation. Can it be located from the acbl main page, without a search (which will, I'm sure, turn up pages that are no longer valid)?

The page doesn't seem to have a date on it either - and it refers to the "new" convention card. When was it "new"? I've seen only a couple of minor changes over the last 20 years or so.

Is it o.k. if we use it to sensibly fill out our convention cards?
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