Precision 2C competitive decision
#1
Posted 2014-July-28, 03:47
K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x
pard RHO you LHO
2♣ pass pass dbl
pass pass ..??
2♣ = natural 9-14. Can be 5 cards if 5♣-4M. Else it's 6 a carder.
pull or null? (Rdbl = pen, 2x = natural)
#4
Posted 2014-July-28, 16:50
the_clown, on 2014-July-28, 13:07, said:
wouldn't be so sure that's their methods, they are opening pretty light. cant they have weak 5-card suit if light?. Sounds like they don't pass much.
but would still pass.
#6
Posted 2014-July-28, 19:12
steve2005, on 2014-July-28, 16:50, said:
Yes, weak 5 card possible even if light.
The system isn't too sound. The reason for playing this way is its parent system is forbidden (it's a two-way forcing pass). In the parent system the 2♣ opener would start with a natural 1♣ 9-14.
The point here is simply to evaluate what seems more likely: pass and hope for the best or gamble pard has 3+ spades (he can't have a diamond side suit).
#7
Posted 2014-July-28, 23:11
whereagles, on 2014-July-28, 03:47, said:
K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x
pard RHO you LHO
2♣ pass pass dbl
pass pass ..??
2♣ = natural 9-14. Can be 5 cards if 5♣-4M. Else it's 6 a carder.
pull or null? (Rdbl = pen, 2x = natural)
I am happy to pass and proud of my dummy on this auction. If P goes down it's not because I am deficient. You are not going to be any better off in your suits with cards stacked behind you.
#9
Posted 2014-July-29, 07:36
biggerclub, on 2014-July-28, 23:13, said:
I actually did that for like 4 years lol. It's better of course.
The only reason I play this somewhat unsound club system is I want to mimic as much as possible the two-way forcing pass parent system. I can only play the parent system 3 times a year (open teams, imp pairs, team trials), so I need to have at least some of it in cache
#10
Posted 2014-July-29, 07:39
biggerclub said:
Agree, but playing 4-card majors is a paradigm shift and unless you learned bridge in the 60s or 70s one does not know the techniques for playing 4-3 and 4-2 contracts.
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)
Santa Fe Precision ♣ published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail ♣. 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified ♣ (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary ♣ Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
#11
Posted 2014-July-29, 11:05
K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x
Axxx
Axx
x
QJxxx
This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2♠ on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."
#12
Posted 2014-July-29, 20:04
#13
Posted 2014-July-29, 20:29
whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:05, said:
p has 1=4=2=6 wouldn't you feel silly then.
Most serious Precision pairs have gone to promising 6♣.
#14
Posted 2014-July-29, 22:11
whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:05, said:
K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x
Axxx
Axx
x
QJxxx
This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2♠ on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."
Well, I don't think you can run unless you have some kind of SOS system and probably not even then. One hand does not a system make. But how much nicer if the auction goes, 1♠ 2♠ all pass or X or whatever OPPs want to do over that.
#15
Posted 2014-July-30, 00:21
#16
Posted 2014-July-30, 01:11
steve2005, on 2014-July-29, 20:29, said:
Most serious Precision pairs have gone to promising 6♣.
Yes Steve, except whereagles isn't playing Precision - I am assuming it's a Strong Club created to simulate as closely as possible a Forcing Pass system. After all, the posted hand is the reason why they expanded the Precision 2♦ opener to include this hand type, with a bad Club suit. Or, they can just make 1♦ = 0+ . I have had a bunch of good results when opening 2♣ on 5♣-4M hands (but club suits good enough to play in a 5-1 fit), but very poor ones when partner opens it on a bad Club suit.
I would pass at the table, because many times partner will have 6+ Clubs, or at least better spots, and there's no guarantee that Spades will play better than Clubs.
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
#17
Posted 2014-July-30, 04:02
whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:05, said:
K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x
Axxx
Axx
x
QJxxx
This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2♠ on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."
While bidding 2♠ on the grounds you mention is not insane, opening such hands 2♣, while often creating problems for opponents, is a disaster waiting to happen.
I know this style is popular with Polish club.
Rainer Herrmann
#18
Posted 2014-July-30, 06:54
Before I turned to forcing pass I played some versions of precision with a super-nebulous 1♦, i.e. a 1♦ that could be
(a) balanced hand in some range (usually 11-12 or 13-15)
(b) irregular with 5+ diamonds
(c ) irregular with 5+ clubs (i.e. a hand which would normally open 2♣ on standard precision)
Quite frankly, it was somewhat nightmarish, even without opponents butting-in.
One thing I've still to try is to remove variant (a) from the lot (with 11-12 just pass, with 13-15 open 1NT) and make it a sort of "constructive multi for the minors". This might actually be playable, and even fun. You could have auctions such as
1♦ pass 3♣ ??
where 3♣ is preemptive, pass/correct. The pressure on 4th player would be very considerable. Being able to make a bid like this on, say,
xxx
Axxx
Qxx
xxx
might be very profitable.
#19
Posted 2014-July-30, 20:17
We're certainly into 500+ in 2C, stacked over opener.
Partner cannot have C+D, so upped he has spades.
#20
Posted 2014-July-31, 02:28
whereagles, on 2014-July-30, 06:54, said:
Before I turned to forcing pass I played some versions of precision with a super-nebulous 1♦, i.e. a 1♦ that could be
(a) balanced hand in some range (usually 11-12 or 13-15)
(b) irregular with 5+ diamonds
(c ) irregular with 5+ clubs (i.e. a hand which would normally open 2♣ on standard precision)
Quite frankly, it was somewhat nightmarish, even without opponents butting-in.
One thing I've still to try is to remove variant (a) from the lot (with 11-12 just pass, with 13-15 open 1NT) and make it a sort of "constructive multi for the minors". This might actually be playable, and even fun. You could have auctions such as
1♦ pass 3♣ ??
where 3♣ is preemptive, pass/correct. The pressure on 4th player would be very considerable. Being able to make a bid like this on, say,
xxx
Axxx
Qxx
xxx
might be very profitable.
Interesting concept, I rather like it. Do you get a lot of criticism for passing flat 12's? My Real Diamond Precision partnership has moved to requiring 6 for the 2♣ opener, and using a wide range 12-15 1NT which may include 5-4-2-2 shapes, and passing flat 11's. Now 1♦ almost always has 4, it cam only be 3 with 4=1=3=5 or 1=4=3=5. I would be happier with a 13-15 1NT with pass or bash style responses, but this would require passing flat 12's.