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Precision 2C competitive decision

#1 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 03:47

You got, all red @ imps,

K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x

pard RHO you LHO
2 pass pass dbl
pass pass ..??

2 = natural 9-14. Can be 5 cards if 5-4M. Else it's 6 a carder.

pull or null? (Rdbl = pen, 2x = natural)
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#2 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 12:18

Pass for me.
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#3 User is offline   the_clown 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 13:07

Obvious pass, with a poor 5 card suit partner will open 1
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 16:50

 the_clown, on 2014-July-28, 13:07, said:

Obvious pass, with a poor 5 card suit partner will open 1

wouldn't be so sure that's their methods, they are opening pretty light. cant they have weak 5-card suit if light?. Sounds like they don't pass much. :unsure:

but would still pass.
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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 19:09

 the_clown, on 2014-July-28, 13:07, said:

Obvious pass, with a poor 5 card suit partner will open 1


Yes, but only if he has 3+ diamonds. With 5-4 clubs-major and 0-2 diamonds, open 2.
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 19:12

 steve2005, on 2014-July-28, 16:50, said:

wouldn't be so sure that's their methods, they are opening pretty light. cant they have weak 5-card suit if light?. Sounds like they don't pass much. :unsure:


Yes, weak 5 card possible even if light.

The system isn't too sound. The reason for playing this way is its parent system is forbidden (it's a two-way forcing pass). In the parent system the 2 opener would start with a natural 1 9-14.

The point here is simply to evaluate what seems more likely: pass and hope for the best or gamble pard has 3+ spades (he can't have a diamond side suit).
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#7 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 23:11

 whereagles, on 2014-July-28, 03:47, said:

You got, all red @ imps,

K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x

pard RHO you LHO
2 pass pass dbl
pass pass ..??

2 = natural 9-14. Can be 5 cards if 5-4M. Else it's 6 a carder.

pull or null? (Rdbl = pen, 2x = natural)


I am happy to pass and proud of my dummy on this auction. If P goes down it's not because I am deficient. You are not going to be any better off in your suits with cards stacked behind you.
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#8 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2014-July-28, 23:13

 whereagles, on 2014-July-28, 19:09, said:

Yes, but only if he has 3+ diamonds. With 5-4 clubs-major and 0-2 diamonds, open 2.


Play 4 card majors/canape.
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#9 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-29, 07:36

 biggerclub, on 2014-July-28, 23:13, said:

Play 4 card majors/canape.


I actually did that for like 4 years lol. It's better of course.

The only reason I play this somewhat unsound club system is I want to mimic as much as possible the two-way forcing pass parent system. I can only play the parent system 3 times a year (open teams, imp pairs, team trials), so I need to have at least some of it in cache :)
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#10 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2014-July-29, 07:39

biggerclub said:

Play 4 card majors/canape.

Agree, but playing 4-card majors is a paradigm shift and unless you learned bridge in the 60s or 70s one does not know the techniques for playing 4-3 and 4-2 contracts.
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-29, 11:05

well, so hands were

K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x

Axxx
Axx
x
QJxxx

This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2 on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."
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#12 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2014-July-29, 20:04

Most precision systems bid something else, often 2, with 44 or (43) majors and short diamonds. Saves a lot of guessing about major fits. In particular, when opening 2, you only have to look for one major in openers hand.
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#13 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-July-29, 20:29

 whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:05, said:

This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2 on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."

p has 1=4=2=6 wouldn't you feel silly then.
Most serious Precision pairs have gone to promising 6.
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#14 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2014-July-29, 22:11

 whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:05, said:

well, so hands were

K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x

Axxx
Axx
x
QJxxx

This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2 on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."


Well, I don't think you can run unless you have some kind of SOS system and probably not even then. One hand does not a system make. But how much nicer if the auction goes, 1 2 all pass or X or whatever OPPs want to do over that.
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#15 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 00:21

Don't think you can do anything here, p is still possible to have 6 clubs and, even if he has 5, there is no promise of a better fit you can run to.
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#16 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 01:11

 steve2005, on 2014-July-29, 20:29, said:

p has 1=4=2=6 wouldn't you feel silly then.
Most serious Precision pairs have gone to promising 6.

Yes Steve, except whereagles isn't playing Precision - I am assuming it's a Strong Club created to simulate as closely as possible a Forcing Pass system. After all, the posted hand is the reason why they expanded the Precision 2 opener to include this hand type, with a bad Club suit. Or, they can just make 1 = 0+ . I have had a bunch of good results when opening 2 on 5-4M hands (but club suits good enough to play in a 5-1 fit), but very poor ones when partner opens it on a bad Club suit.

I would pass at the table, because many times partner will have 6+ Clubs, or at least better spots, and there's no guarantee that Spades will play better than Clubs.
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#17 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 04:02

 whereagles, on 2014-July-29, 11:05, said:

well, so hands were

K9xxx
xx
AJTx
9x

Axxx
Axx
x
QJxxx

This went for -500 and I was left wondering whether North should pull to 2 on grounds of "with clubs stacked, it can't get much worse than this..."

While bidding 2 on the grounds you mention is not insane, opening such hands 2, while often creating problems for opponents, is a disaster waiting to happen.
I know this style is popular with Polish club.

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#18 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 06:54

Totally agree. In fact, I've been there many times. The precision 2 opener (and to a lesser extent 1) can get very cumbersome from time to time.

Before I turned to forcing pass I played some versions of precision with a super-nebulous 1, i.e. a 1 that could be

(a) balanced hand in some range (usually 11-12 or 13-15)
(b) irregular with 5+ diamonds
(c ) irregular with 5+ clubs (i.e. a hand which would normally open 2 on standard precision)

Quite frankly, it was somewhat nightmarish, even without opponents butting-in.

One thing I've still to try is to remove variant (a) from the lot (with 11-12 just pass, with 13-15 open 1NT) and make it a sort of "constructive multi for the minors". This might actually be playable, and even fun. You could have auctions such as

1 pass 3 ??

where 3 is preemptive, pass/correct. The pressure on 4th player would be very considerable. Being able to make a bid like this on, say,

xxx
Axxx
Qxx
xxx

might be very profitable.
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#19 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2014-July-30, 20:17

I'm bidding 2S.
We're certainly into 500+ in 2C, stacked over opener.
Partner cannot have C+D, so upped he has spades.
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#20 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2014-July-31, 02:28

 whereagles, on 2014-July-30, 06:54, said:

Totally agree. In fact, I've been there many times. The precision 2 opener (and to a lesser extent 1) can get very cumbersome from time to time.

Before I turned to forcing pass I played some versions of precision with a super-nebulous 1, i.e. a 1 that could be

(a) balanced hand in some range (usually 11-12 or 13-15)
(b) irregular with 5+ diamonds
(c ) irregular with 5+ clubs (i.e. a hand which would normally open 2 on standard precision)

Quite frankly, it was somewhat nightmarish, even without opponents butting-in.

One thing I've still to try is to remove variant (a) from the lot (with 11-12 just pass, with 13-15 open 1NT) and make it a sort of "constructive multi for the minors". This might actually be playable, and even fun. You could have auctions such as

1 pass 3 ??

where 3 is preemptive, pass/correct. The pressure on 4th player would be very considerable. Being able to make a bid like this on, say,

xxx
Axxx
Qxx
xxx

might be very profitable.


Interesting concept, I rather like it. Do you get a lot of criticism for passing flat 12's? My Real Diamond Precision partnership has moved to requiring 6 for the 2 opener, and using a wide range 12-15 1NT which may include 5-4-2-2 shapes, and passing flat 11's. Now 1 almost always has 4, it cam only be 3 with 4=1=3=5 or 1=4=3=5. I would be happier with a 13-15 1NT with pass or bash style responses, but this would require passing flat 12's.
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