[kenberg]

I will later give you the hand that prompted this post but partner and I had an congenial (really) discussion afterward about various holdings and follow-ups.

I assume everyone agrees that 3H does not ask responder to bid 4 for much of any reason.

Do we agree that bidding 3m (either m) is an invitation to 4H, not an offer to play 3m? My own preferred style is that 3m shows values in m rather than, say, asks for shortness in m.

Now what about X: 1H-(1S)-2H-(2S)-X is what? I assume that 1H-(2D)-2H-(3D)-X is maximal, inviting in game since space is cramped. And 1H-(2C)-2H-(3C)-X shows extras, of course, but is more inviting of a pass since 3D was available for a generic game try. But 1H-(1S)-2H-(2S)-X ? It seems unlikely we want to seriously consider playing 2SX when both sides have a fit. So what is it?

I know nothing of the uses for 2NT here. I doubt it is natural.

Now to the stronger. Yes we could, I suppose, have a slam after this beginning but that's not what I want to ask about. let's say opener plans to bid 4H. The problem is, depending on vulnerability and form of scoring, and aggressiveness of the opponents, this may be followed by 4S from their side and we have to decide what to do over that.

i suppose 1H-(1S)-2H-(2S)-3S is a splinter. Not so much to reach slam as to help partner decide whether to go on to 5. Of course it might help the opponents play the hand if they buy it. That's about as far as I got.

Suggestions are welcome.


Now, for comic relief, I give you the hands. I was the goat on this but it didn't cost as much as it could since they failed to reach 4H at the other table.

---

I was West and with an Ace and a sure trump trick I need to double. Yes. But I didn't.

Partner was not sure just what I would make of what over 2S, so he just bid a practical 4H. As you can see, it needs me to have something, and it needs the diamonds to not be arranged to badly. But it makes. I figured they had a black two-suiter, and they do, but next time I double. I can't say I expected Qx of trump in partner's hand, but that's just added gravy. We won the match anyway.

As mentioned, the hand is for comic relief. But I am interested in what agreements people have for accuracy here.

[WesleyC]

My preferences here is:

2NT = shortage ask.
New suits = natural, forcing.
Jumps/3S = splinters.
X = Penalty suggestion (but mostly just for consistency, given you basically never want to double in this auction something else would be better)

One other comment, is that I would always bid 3H (rather than 2H) on the first round of the auction because it describes your extra playing strength and puts maximum pressure on the opponents.

[kenberg]

WesleyC, on 2014-December-05, 11:28, said:

My preferences here is:

2NT = shortage ask.
New suits = natural, forcing.
Jumps/3S = splinters.
X = Penalty suggestion (but mostly just for consistency, given you basically never want to double in this auction something else would be better)

One other comment, is that I would always bid 3H (rather than 2H) on the first round of the auction because it describes your extra playing strength and puts maximum pressure on the opponents.

Yes, I think I agree with this stronger action, it is a good hand, (I would have to bid 2S, not 3H since 3H over 1S would be preemptive, but that's a detail).
But as the auction went, 1H-(1S)-2H-(2S)-X, you are thinking of X as good values, in theory passable for penalties, in reality almost never passed. Seems about right.

[mikeh]

I am going to offer some thoughts on just one aspect of the situation: a jump by opener to 4♣ or 4♦

It is rare that one holds a splinter in minor in this auction. Not impossible, but not as common as well the opps haven't shown a fit elsewhere. It is still more rare that one holds a splinter and a slam try opposite a single raise.

On the other hand, it is more common, by far, to hold a pronounced 2-suiter, with values for game, based in part on shape, and concern about what to do if they bid 4♠.Thus it has been fairly standard expert practice, in my neck of the woods if not elsewhere, for 4m to be, of all things, natural, showing length and strength. It is forcing...not an effort to play there....and will usually disavow any significant strength outside of hearts and the minor. The purpose is essentially to tell partner about your hand so as to allow partner to make the partnership decision over a 4♠ bid.


Partner is expected to bid on with a double fit...indeed, if partner is, say, 3=4 or 3=5, longer in our minor, then he can bid our minor, since if we may need to play the safer of the 5-level contracts. These are the hand-types on which double-game swings are possible, and even where the side with the balance of the hcp is actually the one that is saving...so we may be bidding 5m, with 24 hcp or so, and be happy to be down one against their cold game. On the other hand, with length and strength in the other minor, or unexpected trump strength, responder can and should double....in the former case, probably followed by a trump lead, since our side has length and values in all of the other suits and we want to stop dummy scoring ruffs.

The other aspect of this is that if opener were to bid 4♥ then that assumes captaincy, at least in terms of bidding on after 4♠. Simply put, responder has no rights other than double or pass. Double should be based on trumps and non-heart cards (your actual hand is a perfect example of the rare hand where it is probably right to double... the 4th heart is bad, but you do have an Ace and a surprising trump holding. The one call you shouldn't make is 5♥. However, and this is a slight hijack, you held an awkward hand for your methods. It would have been nice to have a mixed raise available: I don't think this is quite good enough for a limit, and yet it is very strong for a single raise.

[WesleyC]

If this hand doesn't fit in your 3H bid then you need to re-think your ranges!

"Preemptive" shouldn't mean "Weak". The default agreement for 3H is 4+ hearts and (2)5-8 HCP with some distributional strength (based on the vulnerability). This is a really powerful agreement because hands within that range are extremely common.

[WesleyC]

mikeh, on 2014-December-05, 17:14, said:

On the other hand, it is more common, by far, to hold a pronounced 2-suiter, with values for game, based in part on shape, and concern about what to do if they bid 4♠.Thus it has been fairly standard expert practice, in my neck of the woods if not elsewhere, for 4m to be, of all things, natural, showing length and strength. It is forcing...not an effort to play there....and will usually disavow any significant strength outside of hearts and the minor. The purpose is essentially to tell partner about your hand so as to allow partner to make the partnership decision over a 4♠ bid.

If you play 4m as natural then its probably better for 3 level bids to show shortage rather than length. Certainly a reasonable idea though!

[lexlogan]

Following the law of total tricks, I treat 1H-(1S)-2H-(2S)-dbl as just extra values with minimal shape (presumably 5332.) So the basic scheme is to bid 3H with extra shape, double with extra strength, and bid 4H with both extras shape and strength or with twice extra shape. New suits are as much lead directing as anything, such as when you open xx Qxxxxx AKx Kx and want partner to lead a diamond rather than a heart against 3S or 4S. While 3H is not invitational per se, it suggests an extra trump or singleton in their suit or something so at times responder may continue to game.