[ahydra]

IMPs, basic system is weak NT with 5cM.

♠AQx
♥-
♦AQ109xx
♣KQxx

1D-1H
2C-2S*
?

What do you bid in response to partner's 4SF if it is:
a) forcing for one round only?
b) GF?

Thanks,

ahydra

[Hanoi5]

a) I might try 3NT. 4♦ is another possibility.
b) 3♦

[PhilKing]

a) 3♠ (seems obvious)
b) 3♦

[Fluffy]

4SF at 2♠ level being not GF seems totally unplayable. We will never get partner to understand we have this shape and this many extras, so I think we should prepare to mastermind this one.

[the hog]

Fluffy, on 2015-January-07, 18:34, said:

4SF at 2♠ level being not GF seems totally unplayable. We will never get partner to understand we have this shape and this many extras, so I think we should prepare to mastermind this one.

I agree with this. 3S is ok in this sequence where opener has denied 4S.

[ahydra]

Apologies I made a typo, the CA should be the CK. I guess it doesn't make a lot of difference though.

Opposite was Kxx KJxxx Jx AJx. We play 2S as F1. Partner opted for 3NT with the OP hand and I passed as it looked like a misfitting combined 29-30 count. After 3S reply to 4SF, would you get to 6D?

ahydra

[Zelandakh]

With the ♣A rather than the king, Opener might have JSed last round so a difference is certainly possible. If you like F1 4SF but see the problems in this auction, you might consider the version used in Germany (and presumably France) in which it is F1 if below 2 of Responder's suit and GF if above, so 1♦ - 1♠; 2♣ - 2♥ is F1R while 1♦ - 1♥; 2♣ - 2♠ is GF.

[PhilKing]

ahydra, on 2015-January-08, 03:16, said:

Apologies I made a typo, the CA should be the CK. I guess it doesn't make a lot of difference though.

Opposite was Kxx KJxxx Jx AJx. We play 2S as F1. Partner opted for 3NT with the OP hand and I passed as it looked like a misfitting combined 29-30 count. After 3S reply to 4SF, would you get to 6D?

ahydra

I was intending to bid 3♠ then 4♦ - that must strongly imply this shape (the "impossible" raise traditionally showed Hxx). Partner should realise his hand is a lot better than it might be now.

[Phil]

3♠ always. Describe 12 cards instead of 10, etc. Then 4♦.

Why would you play 2♠ as a one round force only?

[gordontd]

Phil, on 2015-January-08, 05:02, said:

Why would you play 2♠ as a one round force only?

Because otherwise some hands are unbiddable? Personally I agree with playing it as game-forcing, but it's wrong to imply there's no trade-off involved.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 3S
#2 3D

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

ahydra, on 2015-January-08, 03:16, said:

Apologies I made a typo, the CA should be the CK. I guess it doesn't make a lot of difference though.

Opposite was Kxx KJxxx Jx AJx. We play 2S as F1. Partner opted for 3NT with the OP hand and I passed as it looked like a misfitting combined 29-30 count. After 3S reply to 4SF, would you get to 6D?

ahydra

No.

Why should opener move on over 3NT by responder? Responder showed an inv. hand with 5 hearts and a spade stopper.
Opener has no idea about a diamond fit, let alone the fitting club honors, for all he knowes responder may be 4-5-1-3.

If you play 2S as gf, and if 3D showes 64 ... depending what your default rebid is, you may get to 6D, you may / or you may not.
By passing 3NT is still a proposition, Jx is fit for the 6 carder, but you would love to have xxx, and for all you know, opener
may be dead. And if responder bids 3NT, why should opener remove without knowing that a fit exists.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I am not sure what it means to play it as a one round force but I think most who play that style would play it as a gf when it is a reverse such as here.

If it means that any nonjump can be passed I bid 3nt.

[gordontd]

helene_t, on 2015-January-08, 08:01, said:

I am not sure what it means to play it as a one round force but I think most who play that style would play it as a gf when it is a reverse such as here.

If it means that any nonjump can be passed I bid 3nt.

I think in that style it shows something like:

xxx
KQxxx
Kx
Kxx

[Phil]

gordontd, on 2015-January-08, 09:18, said:

I think in that style it shows something like:

xxx
KQxxx
Kx
Kxx

This is a good example - invitational hand without a known fit.

But what then? If opener is minimum, I suppose, 2N, pr 3m is available, but if opener has extras, what then? 3♠ would get overloaded since we do not want to move past 3N.

[ahydra]

Indeed, that's roughly the kind of hand it shows (but unlimited upwards of course). I don't like the style, just playing it at partner's request - losing the ability to GF doesn't seem worth gaining the ability to stop on a dime in 2NT or 3m. In addition the 2NT rebid from opener might be fairly wide-ranging, like 11-15 or so, sometimes leaving responder with a nasty guess as to whether or not to raise to 3NT.

I'll see if I can convince him to play the "responder's reverse 4SF = GF" that Zelandakh and helene mentioned as a compromise

ahydra

[kenberg]

With no discussion at all, I think over 2S I bid 3S. Let's assume one round force. If 2S is only a one round force then I imagine 2NT can be passed and 3C or 3D can be passed, but 3S? passing 3S would be most weird. If he has four spades and enough values to force to the 3 level he will most likely elect to play in 4S, and if he doesn't have four spades he is not going to strand me in a 3-3 fit.
Since he doesn't promise four spades my 3S surely shows enough in values to play at the four level in something, it shows at most one heart, and it shows good spades. After that. it is up to him.
Otherwise put, if 2S was not gf it still sows good values, and then 3S is gf.

[SteveMoe]

See no reason to bid other than 3♦ showing shape. (2♠=GF).
Over an expected 3♥ punt can now call 3♠ setting up the rest of the auction. 3♠ over 2♠ will torture a 3=5=2=3 partner.

[whereagles]

4♦. The hand beats the heck out of a 5-4 minors with 11-12 H. You have to say you're considerably better than that and the jump is the only way to do it naturally.

Note that 4NT by responder after 4♦ will be a natural sign-off, because there's no other way to show a misfit. If responder wants to ask for aces, he needs to bid 4M (cue) now.

[helene_t]

gordontd, on 2015-January-08, 09:18, said:

I think in that style it shows something like:

xxx
KQxxx
Kx
Kxx

Yes I understand that of course. But what I don't understand is how I can figure out which subsequent bids by either partner are forcing. Whenever one partner has a couple of HCPs more than promised, that player somehow has, at some point, to establish a game force, either by jumping or by making some bid that logically must be forcing such as for example 3♠ here, or by bidding on after partner has made a nf bid. But does that mean that any bid which doesn't show extras can be passed? Or do we play "forcing to suit agreement" like Americans do after a cue response to t/o double? Or some other generic principle? Or do we have to make specific agreements about every bid which doesn't clearly show extra values?