[camilleln]

The bidding goes: 1♦ : 1♠ : 2♥ : 3♦ : 4♦

I would not play 4 ♦ as minorwood since our reverse promises 16+ good hcp and our responder agreement promises 8+ hcp for a forcing bid (playing leb over reverses). Does anyone play 4 ♦ in this auction as minorwood?

Also, if responder is strong, would his jump to 4 ♦ after the 2 ♥ reverse bid be minorwood? ... the 3 ♦ bid is available to any hand which is either weak or would like to investigate slam, responder's values are unknown other than 8+ hcp so opener will not pass and can still invite to 5d, cuebid or bid 4n. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thank you.

[mgoetze]

camilleln, on 2015-April-17, 23:40, said:

our reverse promises 16+ good hcp and our responder agreement promises 8+ hcp for a forcing bid (playing leb over reverses).

I don't understand how this is an argument against playing minorwood.

[camilleln]

mgoetze, on 2015-April-18, 00:29, said:

I don't understand how this is an argument against playing minorwood.

16 hcp + 8 hcp = 24 hcp, enough to be in 3n, or close to the 4 level game bid in a major. So where does opener go with 16 hcp and nothing else to say, e.g. no stopper in clubs, singleton spade (can't cuebid shortness in partner's suit), a rebid of hearts with an ace might look like a 6-5 hand. So, there is no other bid than 4d, invitational and responder can cuebid or bid 4n if all is stopped. However, if all stopped, responder could have bid 4d instead of 3d, which I would take as minorwood.

[mgoetze]

camilleln, on 2015-April-18, 13:39, said:

So where does opener go with 16 hcp and nothing else to say, e.g. no stopper in clubs, singleton spade (can't cuebid shortness in partner's suit), a rebid of hearts with an ace might look like a 6-5 hand. So, there is no other bid than 4d, invitational

So you're envisioning a 1453 hand with 16 HCP. You have minimum HCP, minimum shape, and a singleton in partner's suit - did you really have to reverse? I mean, OK, if you want to reverse with that hand because you feel like it at the moment, then go for it, but building your system to cater for such minimum-oppo-minimum scenarios and trying to stop on a dime will just hamper your bidding with full strength hands too much. You are forced to game, so bid game. If you really cannot stand to bid 3NT, then bid 5♦, not 4♦.

[rhm]

The first question you have to answer is: Which bidding sequences up to 4♣ or 4♦ are forcing and which are not.
Sequences, which are not forcing can not be a minorwood ask since partner might pass.
Then you must decide which of the forcing sequences should be a minorwood ask.

So:

Is 1♦-1♠-2♥-3♦-4♦ forcing in your opinion?

If you prefer it as non forcing the question is already answered.
If it is forcing why should it not be minorwood if you like the convention?

So in my opinion you are asking the wrong question. You should ask whether 4♦ should be forcing in this sequence.

Rainer Herrmann

[mike777]

I would go a bit further and ask if 3d is gf. It seems it should be. With less responder can either:
1) rebid 2s with 5+ and weakish
2) bid an art 2nt with only 4 and weakish.

Agree with posters point about either do not reverse with only 16 or if you do don't worry about it.

You also have the option of making your responder gf bids 9+.
with less you rebid 2s or 2nt(art)

[aguahombre]

We have defined every other continuation by Opener after the 3D bid, all the way up... and perhaps not the way anyone else on the planet would define them. So, 4D is pretty much an idle bid which might as well be Minorwood.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2015-April-18, 17:15, said:

I would go a bit further and ask if 3d is gf. It seems it should be. With less responder can either:
1) rebid 2s with 5+ and weakish
2) bid an art 2nt with only 4 and weakish.

Agree with posters point about either do not reverse with only 16 or if you do don't worry about it.

You also have the option of making your responder gf bids 9+.
with less you rebid 2s or 2nt(art)

partner can't bid a natural 2N with 4♠/6♣ and a 6 count ? not everybody plays an art 2N here, this is methods dependent. I would play 4♦ NF here but wouldn't have a 1453 minimum reverse as playing a weak NT I can rebid 1N.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-April-18, 23:30, said:

partner can't bid a natural 2N with 4♠/6♣ and a 6 count ? not everybody plays an art 2N here, this is methods dependent. I would play 4♦ NF here but wouldn't have a 1453 minimum reverse as playing a weak NT I can rebid 1N.

no pard cannot promise a natural 2nt with weak hand and long clubs.....
in fact pard cannot promise long clubs and weak hand..

you choose to live with that or not.

all the more reason reverse is strong not minimum
---------------------


If it matters pls keep in mind pass with short spades do not open bidding, but that is perhaps not accepted.

My only point is with short spades you can see the problem.

[camilleln]

mgoetze, on 2015-April-18, 14:06, said:

So you're envisioning a 1453 hand with 16 HCP. You have minimum HCP, minimum shape, and a singleton in partner's suit - did you really have to reverse? I mean, OK, if you want to reverse with that hand because you feel like it at the moment, then go for it, but building your system to cater for such minimum-oppo-minimum scenarios and trying to stop on a dime will just hamper your bidding with full strength hands too much. You are forced to game, so bid game. If you really cannot stand to bid 3NT, then bid 5♦, not 4♦.

The reverse hand:

S-5
H-KJT3
D-AKQT96
C-QJ

I reverse with a 5 loser hand without the needed hcp or a 6 loser hand with 16+ hcp, this hand has a questionable doubleton in clubs, most likely worthless. If partner does not have a club stopper nor the A of spades or even S-Kx if rho has S-AQ, 5 D will not make. 3 NT is questionable as well with 8 hcp from partner if minimum. So, having no bid to default too, if 4d is always minorwood, it does not seem logical. 4d as an invitation to 5 diamonds (or slam) if responder has 10-11 + hcp, but with less being able to stop in a 4d contract which can make.

[aguahombre]

That's a 3D rebid....and minimum for that. Reverses with those types of hands after a 1S response always make things go off the tracks afterward.

[mgoetze]

camilleln, on 2015-April-19, 09:56, said:

The reverse hand:

S-5
H-KJT3
D-AKQT96
C-QJ

As agua said, this is not a reverse. Let's say you had an actual reverse:

♠5
♥AKT3
♦AKQT96
♣QJ

...are you seriously not bidding 3NT because partner "doesn't have a club stopper"? How is partner to know that Txx is a "stopper"?

[JonnyQuest]

This:

camilleln, on 2015-April-17, 23:40, said:

The bidding goes: 1♦ : 1♠ : 2♥ : 3♦ : 4♦

our reverse promises 16+ good hcp

Plus this:

camilleln, on 2015-April-19, 09:56, said:

The reverse hand:

S-5
H-KJT3
D-AKQT96
C-QJ

this hand has a questionable doubleton in clubs, most likely worthless.

are somewhat incongruous.