[PhilG007]

How many people here think there are way too many conventions in this game?
I recall one pair whose convention card covered four pages(!) I think the
governors of the game have been wretchedly weak in the predominance and
spread of these cypher bids. What do others think?

[MrAce]

I personally think you are trolling.

[wank]

try this book - there's sure to be something more to your liking: http://www.amazon.co...=100+card+games

[manudude03]

It depends on how you define the convention card. If you mean the system summary that you are supposed to give to your opponents, then 4 pages really is a lot. If you mean the system summary+supplementary notes (for the opponents), then I think 4 pages is about typical. If you mean their system notes, then 4 pages is nothing.

[PhilG007]

MrAce, on 2015-May-21, 02:13, said:

I personally think you are trolling.

I personally think you're a bore.. Forgive me if I offend(Frankly,I don't give a damn in your case(!) )

[PhilG007]

wank, on 2015-May-21, 02:13, said:

try this book - there's sure to be something more to your liking: http://www.amazon.co...=100+card+games

Sorry,already read it....have you(?!) I In addition to bridge,I also play cribbage,bezique,canasta,whist,red dog,Texas hold 'em.baccarat,black jack
Non card games ,chess,Mah jong,backgammon.....

[PhilG007]

manudude03, on 2015-May-21, 02:49, said:

It depends on how you define the convention card. If you mean the system summary that you are supposed to give to your opponents, then 4 pages really is a lot. If you mean the system summary+supplementary notes (for the opponents), then I think 4 pages is about typical. If you mean their system notes, then 4 pages is nothing.

I was referring to their conventions/agreements. I also recall that when one of them alerted a conventional bid,they then had to leave the table while
their partner gave an explanation(!)

[Vampyr]

I think that if yours were a popular viewpoint there would be more Simple System games available than there are.

It is true that too many not-very-experienced players go through a convention-mad phase where they have a conventional bid for everything and don't need to learn to think about the game. Also I think that ACBL players can be seduced by the check-boxes on their convention card and wish to play them all. But this is a problem for the players involved, not for anyone else.

[Vampyr]

PhilG007, on 2015-May-21, 06:46, said:

I was referring to their conventions/agreements. I also recall that when one of them alerted a conventional bid,they then had to leave the table while
their partner gave an explanation(!)

Yes, also people play things that they do not remember. Again, their problem, not a problem for the rest of us.

[billw55]

Entirely the opposite for me. I think system restrictions are dumb. Players should be allowed to have any agreements they want, as long as they disclose them.

[PhilG007]

Vampyr, on 2015-May-21, 06:55, said:

I think that if yours were a popular viewpoint there would be more Simple System games available than there are.

It is true that too many not-very-experienced players go through a convention-mad phase where they have a conventional bid for everything and don't need to learn to think about the game. Also I think that ACBL players can be seduced by the check-boxes on their convention card and wish to play them all. But this is a problem for the players involved, not for anyone else.

When a game/pastime starts to become more shadow than substance,it rapidly loses its appeal..

[manudude03]

PhilG007, on 2015-May-21, 06:46, said:

I was referring to their conventions/agreements. I also recall that when one of them alerted a conventional bid,they then had to leave the table while
their partner gave an explanation(!)

That doesn't really answer the question, as all 3 include conventions and agreements. However, I would be more concerned that this pair didn't know their own system. As long as you can remember your system and the system isn't so bad as to make the common hands unbiddable, does it really matter how many conventions they play? edit: And as long as the system is legal for the competition they are playing of course.

[Cyberyeti]

Vampyr, on 2015-May-21, 06:57, said:

Yes, also people play things that they do not remember. Again, their problem, not a problem for the rest of us.

Actually it is a problem for us. "I think it might be conventional but can't remember what it means", you play X of a conventional bid as showing that suit, X of a natural bid as T/O, now what ?

[steve2005]

4 pages is a bit much unless for playing in a high-level tournament. If you can remember it fine, but I play with people who forget the basic conventions on the cc. I have one partner where Keycard ask is a random number generator lol (so I've stopped asking)

[diana_eva]

wank, on 2015-May-21, 02:13, said:

try this book - there's sure to be something more to your liking: http://www.amazon.co...=100+card+games

I clicked your link and next thing I saw on FB was:

[mycroft]

Wow, I wonder how many pages our *extraordinarily natural* EHAA system has. Let's see:

- well, obviously, since we open weak 2s slightly(*) differently from you, we need half a page or so to explain them and their (entirely natural, except for meanings for cuebids and redoubles) followups.
- A few sentences more for our logic on opening at the 3 or higher levels (again, extremely natural).
- 2♣ natural weak 2. That will take some explaining all by itself.
- Okay, we play Keri/NT. But I'm sure we get a pass on an artificial 2♣ call, transfers, and the odd odd invite. Our 3-level bids are a bit unusual, too, but not so much - and they never come up.
- at the 1 level, we play pretty natural. Sure, J2NT, XYZ, semi-forcing NT, fit jump shifts... but basically natural. But, of course, since our openings are Goren-sound, there are a lot of inferences we take and a lot of responses a queen or so lighter than you might expect we have to explain.
- Oh, a line or two about the fact we don't play 2 conventions everybody plays, both involving club bids.
- defensive agreements are also almost completely natural (Michaels cuebids and slighly off-normal meanings for takeout-double-and-bid aside). But again, since the strength of those calls are Highly Unusual, we'll need a half page or so of notes explaining them.
- sure, artificial defence to NT. Who doesn't play one nowadays?

Looks like I've got to two pages of supplementary sheets on a standard WBF card, and a *very full* "Aspects of system opponents should note" section. And I bet we play half the conventions you do, Phil.

Almost everybody who complains that there are too many conventions in the game are actually saying "the opponents play too many conventions I don't". However, when the regulators say "okay, we'll have everybody play this one card, that will bring the play into the spotlight" - it dies a horrible death, because heaven forfend that we can't play *our* useful tools!

I will agree with you that players of conventional calls have an obligation to be able to explain them, and a general responsibility to not play stuff they can't remember. And it's annoying (but frequently lucrative) when that doesn't happen. But if you search my history, you will find that I tend to have more trouble getting explanations out of people playing "standard" systems than the unusual or artificial ones.

(*) has anyone noticed that I occasionally use understatement for emphasis?

[barmar]

PhilG007, on 2015-May-21, 06:46, said:

I was referring to their conventions/agreements. I also recall that when one of them alerted a conventional bid,they then had to leave the table while
their partner gave an explanation(!)

It still really depends on how you're counting.

With my regular partner, 90% of what we play is described by just filling in the ACBL convention card, mostly just checking the appropriate boxes.

But we also play Mexican 2♦, and we have a 2-page supplement that lists all the responses and followons. So is that dozens of conventions, or just one convention that happens to be complicated.

I admit that we do have a problem in that it's hard to remember the followons for less common hands.

[steve2005]

Two pages of supplementary notes on a 2 page WBF card is not out of the ordinary.

4 pages for an ACBL card at a club game would be.

[Vampyr]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-21, 08:27, said:

Actually it is a problem for us. "I think it might be conventional but can't remember what it means", you play X of a conventional bid as showing that suit, X of a natural bid as T/O, now what ?

Yes, this sort of thing is a problem, but one solution mentioned above, the director sending the partner away from the table, often works.

More often, the pair who can't remember their agreements will suffer.

[Vampyr]

steve2005, on 2015-May-21, 09:47, said:

Two pages of supplementary notes on a 2 page WBF card is not out of the ordinary.

4 pages for an ACBL card at a club game would be.

When people have supplementary notes for an EBU card, I find it is often difficult to find anything. I think the notes should be set up as footnotes, with the numbers to be found at the place on the convention card where the relevant agreements would be written in.