[WellSpyder]

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Match points.
North's 2♥ opening is ostensibly Fantunes style (intermediate (10-13 HCPs), unbalanced (either 6H, or 5H with a 4+ minor and more shapely than 5422), but potentially undisciplined in 3rd seat. West's double of 2♠ is for penalties.

Should North be bidding 3♠ on either the 2nd or 3rd round of the bidding? If South turns out not to have a genuine 2♠ bid, has North fielded this psyche?

[1eyedjack]

I think that all of North's passes are fine.

[ahydra]

If North bids 3S on the second round of the bidding (after West's X) then he belongs in a mental hospital :/

On the third round it is less clear. What would 2S normally show?

ahydra

[helene_t]

No, you are allowed to smell partner's psyche (or misbid, or lead-directing bid on AQ-tight, or fancy convention which you forgot yourself, or whatever) in this situation.

BTW I don't agree that North would belong in a mental hospital if he raised immediately. West's double could be based on a 3-card spades and East could maybe have a monster with a long minor (somewhat depending on their style). If he raised in the third round, however, it would be crazy because now East has shows that he has some spades also so partner can't have more than four.

[WellSpyder]

ahydra, on 2015-July-22, 06:12, said:

What would 2S normally show?

2♠ in response to an opening 2♥ in 1st or 2nd seat would be an artificial relay implying at least invitational values, but all responses to a 3rd or 4th seat 2-level opening are natural (and non-forcing). Over intervention, most bids would be natural and non-forcing anyway, so I think that is what both members of the partnership assumed applied here.

[campboy]

I think it's normal to pass on the second round, hoping it will get passed out. I think you're allowed to realise partner has psyched on the third round, by which point his bidding makes no sense (but not before).

[billw55]

The only call north fielded was west's penalty double.

[wank]

of course not but ebu rules are excessive on this matter, essentially assuming that people who like to psyche are all closet cheats.

[weejonnie]

I can't really see anything wrong here. North is limited and South is a passed hand. (If South wasn't passed then I'd be wondering why North hasn't redoubled (if for strength).)

North opens with a deviation from Fantunes and South bids 2 Spades (natural)
North is happy to play in 2 Spades Doubled and it is obvious when South runs to 3 Hearts that it is a psyche (if not an inadvertent 2 Spade bid) for the simple reason that the partnership is now a level higher.

It is quite close to an amber psyche - which would be awarded automatically if both players had psyched - but as mentioned I regard North's bid as a deviation and their undisciplined approach has been declared to the other side.

[steve2005]

WellSpyder, on 2015-July-22, 06:47, said:

2♠ in response to an opening 2♥ in 1st or 2nd seat would be an artificial relay implying at least invitational values, but all responses to a 3rd or 4th seat 2-level opening are natural (and non-forcing). Over intervention, most bids would be natural and non-forcing anyway, so I think that is what both members of the partnership assumed applied here.

3♥X is game and happy with, so why would anyone bid on? Minimum with nothing special so why would they bid over double of 2♠?

[nige1]

WellSpyder, on 2015-July-22, 05:47, said:

Match points. North's 2♥ opening is ostensibly Fantunes style (intermediate (10-13 HCPs), unbalanced (either 6H, or 5H with a 4+ minor and more shapely than 5422), but potentially undisciplined in 3rd seat. West's double of 2♠ is for penalties. Should North be bidding 3♠ on either the 2nd or 3rd round of the bidding? If South turns out not to have a genuine 2♠ bid, has North fielded this psyche?

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If West's double of 2♠ was alerted as "Penalty", then North's passes seem reasonable. If South has psyched over a take-out double in the past -- making it easier for NS than EW to recognize the ploy, that might put a different complexion on events.

[Cascade]

nige1, on 2015-July-22, 17:30, said:

If West's double of 2♠ was alerted as "Penalty", then North's passes seem reasonable. If South has psyched over a take-out double in the past -- making it easier for NS than EW to recognize the ploy, that might put a different complexion on events.

To what extent is south psyching general bridge knowledge and not specific partnership understanding?

As a partial aside is 2♠ as either natural or a bluff a legitimate agreement and does anyone in the UK play and alert this?

[WellSpyder]

Sorry, I seem to have raised a bit of a non-issue. I was North here, and it didn't really occur to me that I might have done something wrong. I didn't even consciously think that partner must have psyched. I simply thought that if partner decided he didn't want to play in 2♠ doubled even though I had told him by passing that I was happy with this, then it would be silly to tell him to play in 3♠ doubled instead. East, however, seemed firmly of the opinion that I had fielded a psyche. Since he seemed more interested in making sarcastic comments about my bidding than in calling the TD (no doubt since they got a top anyway!), I thought I had better see what the general view here was in case I really had got this wrong - I know it can be hard to form an objective opinion when one is involved at the table, however much you think this is what you are doing.

[lamford]

The pull of 2Sx to 3H exposes the psyche even to a passing waiter.

[barmar]

Cascade, on 2015-July-22, 20:31, said:

To what extent is south psyching general bridge knowledge and not specific partnership understanding?

What part of Nigel's post suggested that it's GBK? He said that if South has a history of making this kind of psyche in the past, it would be easier for North to recognize it than EW. That seems to be the exact opposite of claiming it's GBK.

[Poky]

If 2♠ is defined as a "sign-off", 2♠ isn't even a psyche.

You are allowed to play 2-3 fits legitimately, if you think such maneuver will have a good expectation.

[Cascade]

barmar, on 2015-July-23, 10:03, said:

What part of Nigel's post suggested that it's GBK? He said that if South has a history of making this kind of psyche in the past, it would be easier for North to recognize it than EW. That seems to be the exact opposite of claiming it's GBK.

I don't think i said or suggested that Nigel's post claimed anything was general bridge knowledge.

It seems wrong however to restrict an action based on a presumed partnership understanding when the information is in the public domain not that this particular pair may psyche in a particular circumstance but that many players psyche in this situation.

Indeed in some situations the special partnership understanding may well be that a partnership never psyche in this auction. Certainly that information should be equally available to the opponents as the information that another pair do psyche.

[FrancesHinden]

Cascade, on 2015-July-22, 20:31, said:

As a partial aside is 2♠ as either natural or a bluff a legitimate agreement and does anyone in the UK play and alert this?

Yes, and yes

We alert many major suit responses in the auction 2X dbl 2M or 3X dbl 3M as 'either natural, or lead directing with a fit, or a pysche'

[Cascade]

FrancesHinden, on 2015-July-23, 15:07, said:

Yes, and yes

We alert many major suit responses in the auction 2X dbl 2M or 3X dbl 3M as 'either natural, or lead directing with a fit, or a pysche'

If this is the case it could be just a failure to alert and a little education might solve the problem going forward.

From my experience, it seems to be very difficult to defend against these two way bids almost as bad as if you do not disclose.