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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#18541 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-16, 18:45

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-16, 14:10, said:

On stopping someone like Trump - and Henry Ford?

Quote

Americans rarely pause to consider just how bizarre the presidential nominating process has become. No other major democracy routinely uses primaries to choose its political candidates, nor did the Founders of this country intend for primaries to play a role in the republican system they devised. Abraham Lincoln did not win his party's nomination because he ran a good ground game in New Hampshire; rather, Republican elders saw in him a candidate who could unite rival factions within the party and defeat the Democratic nominee in the general election. Today's system amounts to a radical experiment in direct democracy, one without precedent even in America's own political history.




And now quoting myself from a few posts up
"Lately, I have been thinking a lot about how today differs from the time of my youth. Change happens, I hope we can cope with it."

Ideas that sound good and perhaps in many ways are good can have consequences, side effects, that are not so good.

I mentioned that in Minnesota I did not (as near as I can recall) declare myself to be R or D. Party pros had a lot of influence over who the candidates were. A party pro choosing a candidate asks "How can we get votes from that large bloc in the center? ". Primary voters ask themselves "Who do I like best?" If you think about that, you can see how primaries are likely to produce R and D candidates who are further apart. A D primary will likely produce a candidate well-liked by Ds, but there will be no regard fo the views of Rs, and vice versa. The political pros look for someone with appeal across the spectrum. And we should not underestimate the psychological effect of registering as a D or an R. It becomes my team.In my case, I cannot name a single Raven just as I could not name a single (then referred to as) Redskin. But in my younger years I knew the batting averages of all the St. Paul Saints, the expected batting line-up and so on. The Saints were my team. They should win. (Yes, I do know the Saints played baseball and the Ravens play football, I am not totally dead.)

Several posters above mentioned that there used to be less of a gap between Rs and Ds. Yes. And primaries are part of the cause. The effect is predictable.

Having candidates chosen by primaries appeals to our sense of letting the people choose. But, well, we see the But.

Briefly on a different topic: PBS Newshour has had a series on child care. Apparently, the US is close to last in our provision for this. And it is needed. So I hope we can get a good system going. Such a childhood will be very different from my childhood. But of course, it already is very different.

The world has changed in many ways. Almost all change has some good features and some bad features. But change is inevitable. It's a good idea to anticipate the side effects.



Ken
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#18542 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 03:40

pilowsky said:

It is a truth, universally acknowledged, amongst politicians that about 33% of people will always vote for the same party - no matter who is in it.


I have no idea where that tribal loyalty comes from
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#18543 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 03:46

View Postthepossum, on 2021-July-17, 03:40, said:

I have no idea where that tribal loyalty comes from


Usually from their parents - but who knows for sure.
If someone could figure it out they'd bottle it.
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#18544 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 07:28

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-16, 18:45, said:

(Yes, I do know the Saints played baseball and the Ravens play football, I am not totally dead.)

I found this somewhat amusing - for me the Saints play football and Baltimore is associated more with Orioles and Colts than Ravens.
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#18545 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 08:34

View PostGilithin, on 2021-July-17, 07:28, said:

I found this somewhat amusing - for me the Saints play football and Baltimore is associated more with Orioles and Colts than Ravens.


I suppose calling the St. Paul team the St. Paul Saints is a bit unimaginative. When major league baseball arrived we got the Minnesota Twins. At least it wasn't the Twin City Twins.
On the other hand, presumably nobody thinks that either name, Saints or Twins, is an ethnic slur.
And Ravens is even a literary reference. Impressive.

I have gone from one extreme to the other. I can still name Saints from the 1940s or early 50s, Eric Tipton and Danny Ozark for instance. I would bike over to the stadium, Lexington Park, on Sundays to watch a double header. Somewhere along the way I just lost interest.

Anyway, mindless allegiance to a local sports team can be fun, mindless allegiance to a political party is not a good idea.
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#18546 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 08:48

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-July-17, 03:46, said:

Usually from their parents - but who knows for sure.
If someone could figure it out they'd bottle it.


I like to think there is more to it than that

Of course it always has its limits and sometimes in our system we can at least sometimes give a preference to somebody else. But in my case I'm voting for something bigger no matter how dire current characters may be

Come to think of it and please don't tell anyone, my interests are usually better served by the other lot I will never ever vote for. Go figure
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#18547 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 12:19

I never saw the old Senators team that left DC for Minnesota and I never lived close enough to a major league baseball stadium or pro football stadium to ride my bike to a game. The closest I came was when we lived a few blocks from KU in Lawrence Kansas. On game days, we'd sell parking spaces in the alley behind our house then walk to the stadium a few blocks away.

I remember most of the starting line up from the 1968 Senators. That's the year my older sister got her driver's license. She's the baseball nut in my family or was until the players went on strike in the 90s which led her to cancel her season tickets for the Braves.
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#18548 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 17:05

View Postthepossum, on 2021-July-17, 08:48, said:

I like to think there is more to it than that

Of course it always has its limits and sometimes in our system we can at least sometimes give a preference to somebody else. But in my case I'm voting for something bigger no matter how dire current characters may be

Come to think of it and please don't tell anyone, my interests are usually better served by the other lot I will never ever vote for. Go figure


Your secret is safe here.
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#18549 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 17:36

View Postpilowsky, on 2021-July-17, 17:05, said:

Your secret is safe here.


😂
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#18550 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2021-July-17, 18:30

View Posty66, on 2021-July-17, 12:19, said:

That's the year my older sister got her driver's license. She's the baseball nut in my family or was until the players went on strike in the 90s which led her to cancel her season tickets for the Braves.

I get it. The Yankees were paying Cecil Fielder $9M/year as a designated hitter. And they strike for higher wages? I haven't watched one game since....either in person or on TV.

#18551 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-18, 09:55

I, and many others, have been concerned about just where we are headed. By "we" I mostly mean the US, but I can vary that.

WaPo is starting a series on inequaity:

https://www.washingt...armful-fixable/

Perhaps it will be worth reading, perhaps it will be worth discussing.

One of my thoughts:
Perhaps men are useful.

There was a saying in the 70s: A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.
Maybe we should re-think this. Even if it takes a village to raise a child, two parents working together at it can be useful.

I am looking forward to seeing what WaPo has to say. There will not be just one simple and obvious solution.
Ken
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#18552 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-18, 13:24

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-18, 09:55, said:

There was a saying in the 70s: A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

Have one on me, Ken.
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#18553 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 13:30

I realize most posters here, and perhaps most readers, often vote D. But surely there are some Rs. I hope for comments on vaccines. O believe I have some standing to ask for this. I do ot routinely support every D idea. I have objected to the Defund stuff. Also to paying out 50K to everyone with With student debt. I have expressed skepticism of CRT. And so on.

Much has been said about social media and vaccine skepticism. But we are not really going to be shutting social media down, and maybe we don't have to. We have Republican leaders who very possibly would be listened to by some Republicans. Possibly some of them really believe vaccines are dangerous, possibly some actually think vaccine skepticism is a natural by=product of election skepticism, but it seems more likely to me that they know better and are just quaking in their boots at the thought of contradicting DT.

If this problem is to be dealt with in any meaningful way then ordinary people who usually vote Republican must make it clear to these Republican leaders that there will a price to be paid for their cowardice.

Those Rs who still believe what DT says will say so. But surely there are many Rs out there who now recognize Trump for what he is. I am hoping they will tell their leadership that they must speak up.

Biden recently said social media was killing people by allowing false statements about the vaccine to be posted. True enough, but I doubt we can stop that. But the R leaders need the support of the R faithful, and I am hoping that Rs will let these leaders know that more courage is expected from them

I never expected to write something such as this, it's not my style, but we have a serious problem with getting people to take the vaccine and the silence, or even support of distorted claims, by leading Rs is irresponsible. Way beyond irresponsible.

Added: I see the DJIA dropped 700 points today and this is attributed to worry about the Delta. Maybe money will get people moving on this. Bad things can happen in life but bringing on bad things through idiocy is not the way to go.
Ken
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#18554 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 17:14

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-19, 13:30, said:

I realize most posters here, and perhaps most readers, often vote D. But surely there are some Rs. I hope for comments on vaccines. O believe I have some standing to ask for this. I do ot routinely support every D idea. I have objected to the Defund stuff. Also to paying out 50K to everyone with With student debt. I have expressed skepticism of CRT. And so on.

Much has been said about social media and vaccine skepticism. But we are not really going to be shutting social media down, and maybe we don't have to. We have Republican leaders who very possibly would be listened to by some Republicans. Possibly some of them really believe vaccines are dangerous, possibly some actually think vaccine skepticism is a natural by=product of election skepticism, but it seems more likely to me that they know better and are just quaking in their boots at the thought of contradicting DT.

If this problem is to be dealt with in any meaningful way then ordinary people who usually vote Republican must make it clear to these Republican leaders that there will a price to be paid for their cowardice.

Those Rs who still believe what DT says will say so. But surely there are many Rs out there who now recognize Trump for what he is. I am hoping they will tell their leadership that they must speak up.

Biden recently said social media was killing people by allowing false statements about the vaccine to be posted. True enough, but I doubt we can stop that. But the R leaders need the support of the R faithful, and I am hoping that Rs will let these leaders know that more courage is expected from them

I never expected to write something such as this, it's not my style, but we have a serious problem with getting people to take the vaccine and the silence, or even support of distorted claims, by leading Rs is irresponsible. Way beyond irresponsible.

Added: I see the DJIA dropped 700 points today and this is attributed to worry about the Delta. Maybe money will get people moving on this. Bad things can happen in life but bringing on bad things through idiocy is not the way to go.


Republicans are terrified of losing Trump voters if they do anything but parrot his lead. We cannot forget that after seeing him in action for 4 years 74 million Americans still voted for Trump.

My concern is that the world that you and Biden believe in no longer exists.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter.
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#18555 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 18:46

Has anything changed?
Ken's post prompted me to look up the newsreel archives of the Johnson era anti-war protests.
Here is one example https://bit.ly/AntiVietWar
Watching this video, it is interesting to note that the Demographics of the protesters seems to mirror the recent BLM protests.
If you google rock music concerts of the same period, they look more like Trump rallies, explaining some of the music he plays to warm up the crowd.
Now watch a video about Woodstock - http://bit.ly/WoodStock69
Nearly all the faces are young white kids.
Who were these people - us (although I was too young).
But we had our own little Woodstocks - like the real one, they had almost nothing to do with protesting about human rights.
The people were there for sex, drugs and rock n roll - teenage heaven. Here's a track from the Album http://bit.ly/FlashInMyHead
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#18556 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 18:57

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-July-19, 17:14, said:

Republicans are terrified of losing Trump voters if they do anything but parrot his lead. We cannot forget that after seeing him in action for 4 years 74 million Americans still voted for Trump.

My concern is that the world that you and Biden believe in no longer exists.


I don't regard giving up as a viable option.
Ken
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#18557 User is offline   Chas_P 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 19:18

I haven't seen you guys say much, if anything, about what's going on at the border. What are your thoughts? Is it a good thing for the country? Bad thing for the country? Makes no difference? What?

#18558 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 20:24

View PostChas_P, on 2021-July-19, 19:18, said:

I haven't seen you guys say much, if anything, about what's going on at the border. What are your thoughts? Is it a good thing for the country? Bad thing for the country? Makes no difference? What?

I guess you mean Arizona. What is going on there is definitely a bad thing. I would hope that every educated person in the world (aside from enemies of the USA) would agree with that.
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#18559 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 22:31

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-15, 19:47, said:

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[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]This looks to be a clear statement but on second thought I am not sure. The problem is with "always". People vote when they are 20 and they vote when they are 80.

I think you're misunderstanding it. It's not that a particular person always votes the same way. It's saying that certain groups of people vote consistently.

So 30% of Republicans will vote for whoever the Republican candidate is. And if it's between a black candidate and a white one, or between a man and a woman, a significant number will consistently vote based on race/gender, not issues (they might not admit it, or even be aware of it).

#18560 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-July-19, 22:50

View Postkenberg, on 2021-July-15, 07:06, said:

This sounds like she is advocating that CRT should be taught in schools. Often the response to criticism of teaching CRT in the schools has been that, except fr law schools and other settings with older students, CRT is not being taught in the schools and the conservatives, when criticizing the teaching of CRT to youngsters, are griping about something that nobody is doing or is planning on doing.

Very few are seriously advocating teaching CRT in public schools. The problem is that Republicans have jumped on this to refer to any teaching about the history of racism. And they think that kids will be taught "if you're white, you're inherently racist and you should be ashamed of it."

This is not CRT, and this is not what racism discussions will teach. But the right loves to scare people with dire warnings like this. When I was young, it was gay teachers -- they were going to indoctrinate our kids into the gay lifestyle. Same-sex marriage was going to destroy the institution of marriage (it seems to have survived). More recently it's been bathrooms -- if we let people use the bathroom of the gender they identify as, male pedophiles will claim to be women so they can molest our little girls.

It doesn't matter that none of these things is ever likely to happen. Conservatives don't like it when the world changes from what they're used to. And fear is one of the most powerful emotions.

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