[Winstonm]

A shout out to Ken:

https://www.politico...nation-00057736

Quote

Fully 61 percent of Republicans supported declaring the United States a Christian nation. In other words, even though over half of Republicans previously said such a move would be unconstitutional, a majority of GOP voters would still support this declaration.

[johnu]

 pilowsky, on 2022-September-22, 06:13, said:

So, suppose one or more of the three Mr Trump's +- Mrs Kushner have to go to prison.
Does that mean they get a Secret Service detail in the cells with them?

Secret Service protection for children of the president after the end of the presidency continues until the children are 16. Trump had no problem ordering 6 months of additional protection for his adult children at taxpayer expense when he left office.

So only the Manchurian President will have Secret Service protection in prison. Presumably the Secret Service will set up an office in the cell next to Trump's cell, and will have to take off their shoes when they enter Trump's cell.

[Chas_P]

 kenberg, on 2022-September-19, 18:45, said:

I vote for a person, not a party.

https://www.youtube....h?v=CNmnmdtcdcg

[Winstonm]

A PROCLAMATION

WE, THE CHRISTIAN NATION OF THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERCA, IN ORDER TO KEEP US AS WE IMAGINE US TO BE, AND BY THE POWER VESTED IN US BY THE 7OO CLUB AND CPAC DO HEREBY PROCLAIM:

ARTICLE 1: IF YOU--NON-WHITE AND IN NEED OF A CHANCE TO LIVE A PEACEFUL AND HELPFUL LIFE--TRY TO MIGRATE TO THIS CHRISTIAN NATION, YOU ARE WELL AND TRULY *****ED.


THANK YOU. AMEN

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN FORMER GUY

[Chas_P]

 Winstonm, on 2022-September-24, 13:02, said:

A PROCLAMATION

WE, THE CHRISTIAN NATION OF THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERCA, IN ORDER TO KEEP US AS WE IMAGINE US TO BE, AND BY THE POWER VESTED IN US BY THE 7OO CLUB AND CPAC DO HEREBY PROCLAIM:

ARTICLE 1: IF YOU--NON-WHITE AND IN NEED OF A CHANCE TO LIVE A PEACEFUL AND HELPFUL LIFE--TRY TO MIGRATE TO THIS CHRISTIAN NATION, YOU ARE WELL AND TRULY *****ED.


THANK YOU. AMEN

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN FORMER GUY

I had the best time this afternoon playing in a team match at our local club with two teams from the Georgia Tech bridge club participating. They were such nice young people....four Orientals, one mid-Easterner, two "Americans", and one Italian (the faculty advisor). We didn't talk politics. We just enjoyed life...such as it is nowadays. You should try it Winston.

[Gilithin]

What does "Americans" mean?

[pilowsky]

 Gilithin, on 2022-September-25, 22:12, said:

What does "Americans" mean?

As opposed to the Orientals maybe?

[Gilithin]

 pilowsky, on 2022-September-25, 23:40, said:

As opposed to the Orientals maybe?

Oriental is a term that can be used in the same way as Caucasian. Maybe Chas never spoke to them and did not discover their true nationalities. It can be used in a racist way but it does not need to be.

"Americans" on the other hand is nebulous. The obvious meaning would be a US subject who is not a Native American, someone like Chas himself. Given that we have 8 people for a bridge match, it is perfectly possible that Chas is one of the 2 "Americans". A second possible meaning is akin to the use of 'mid-Easterner'. Maybe the 2 "American" individuals are from the American continent but not US nationals, Canucks perhaps. And of course, terms like "American" are frequently used in racist circles for US nationals that the writer does not consider to be a true American. It just seems logical to clarify what is actually meant here.

[Chas_P]

 Gilithin, on 2022-September-26, 10:36, said:

Oriental is a term that can be used in the same way as Caucasian. Maybe Chas never spoke to them and did not discover their true nationalities. It can be used in a racist way but it does not need to be.

"Americans" on the other hand is nebulous. The obvious meaning would be a US subject who is not a Native American, someone like Chas himself. Given that we have 8 people for a bridge match, it is perfectly possible that Chas is one of the 2 "Americans". A second possible meaning is akin to the use of 'mid-Easterner'. Maybe the 2 "American" individuals are from the American continent but not US nationals, Canucks perhaps. And of course, terms like "American" are frequently used in racist circles for US nationals that the writer does not consider to be a true American. It just seems logical to clarify what is actually meant here.

What I meant is that there were seven young people with different eye slants, different skin tones who were graciously welcomed by people who did not share their eye slants and skin tones. They were bright young people looking to enjoy a happy life. They were not looking to sit around every day whacking out bullshit on a computer keyboard. We were glad to have them, and they are invited back anytime they'd like to come. There is only one race....the human race. But you guys love to cast everyone who doesn't share your worldview as "racist". If that makes you happy, please carry on. I wish you happiness. And just for the record.....I was not one of the two "Americans". There was a young woman who gave me a hug and all of the others gave me a handshake.

[hrothgar]

 Gilithin, on 2022-September-26, 10:36, said:

Oriental is a term that can be used in the same way as Caucasian.

"Oriental" is a very loaded term.

Is it necessarily racist? Probably not.

Does using it show that one's world view is at best dated and pretty ignorant?
Absolutely.

When I was in undergrad, Edward Said was required reading for my history classes, with good reason.

[kenberg]

Maryland has a yearly designated One Maryland One Book, generally chosen to improve us all. Last year they offered free copies to high schools so they could read it and form discussions, afaik not a single Board of Ed took them up on it. I also thought it was a lousy book. But this year it is What's Mine and Yours, which I like a great deal. I belong to a book club and we will discuss it on the second Saturday of October. It is complex and interesting, but I also see it as an extremely sad story. The blurb on the front of my copy speaks of "tender and sharp moments". More than once I was asking "When do we get to the tender?" A high school girl with a White mother and a Latino father becomes pregnant by an irresponsible White boy. Her father is now out of jail but still on drugs, she is estranged from her mother so she seeks help from a nurse, she gets her abortion, encounters a Black nurse at the hospital whose son goes to the same high school by bussing. She realizes that this Black nurse and her White mother were the two mothers at odds over bussing, so she takes up with the Black son, as near as I can see primarily to spite her mother. And so on Later in life, but earlier in this hop-around book, this girl is now an adult and her mother has brain cancer. The younger of her two sisters is trying to get the older two to at least be in contact with their mother. Etc.

Believe it or not, I regard this as a very worthwhile read. Lots of topics. Interracial marriage, family dysfunction cruelty, and ok, maybe some tenderness. The good part is that I found the characters very believable. Tender it is not. I recommend it, not because it will improve anyone, I just found it a very good read.

Playing bridge with someone with slanted eyes, or dark skin, or whatever, is not remotely the same sort of issue. It's not any sort of issue. Ok, it could be an issue sometimes somewhere maybe. God help us.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2022-September-27, 08:17, said:

Maryland has a yearly designated One Maryland One Book, generally chosen to improve us all. Last year they offered free copies to high schools so they could read it and form discussions, afaik not a single Board of Ed took them up on it. I also thought it was a lousy book. But this year it is What's Mine and Yours, which I like a great deal. I belong to a book club and we will discuss it on the second Saturday of October. It is complex and interesting, but I also see it as an extremely sad story. The blurb on the front of my copy speaks of "tender and sharp moments". More than once I was asking "When do we get to the tender?" A high school girl with a White mother and a Latino father becomes pregnant by an irresponsible White boy. Her father is now out of jail but still on drugs, she is estranged from her mother so she seeks help from a nurse, she gets her abortion, encounters a Black nurse at the hospital whose son goes to the same high school by bussing. She realizes that this Black nurse and her White mother were the two mothers at odds over bussing, so she takes up with the Black son, as near as I can see primarily to spite her mother. And so on Later in life, but earlier in this hop-around book, this girl is now an adult and her mother has brain cancer. The younger of her two sisters is trying to get the older two to at least be in contact with their mother. Etc.

Believe it or not, I regard this as a very worthwhile read. Lots of topics. Interracial marriage, family dysfunction cruelty, and ok, maybe some tenderness. The good part is that I found the characters very believable. Tender it is not. I recommend it, not because it will improve anyone, I just found it a very good read.

Playing bridge with someone with slanted eyes, or dark skin, or whatever, is not remotely the same sort of issue. It's not any sort of issue. Ok, it could be an issue sometimes somewhere maybe. God help us.

Sounds like a candidate for the brown shirt book burning barbecue.

[Gilithin]

 Chas_P, on 2022-September-26, 17:48, said:

I was not one of the two "Americans".

So were these two people American nationals of North European origin, Canucks, non-white American nationals, or something else?

[Gilithin]

 hrothgar, on 2022-September-27, 05:21, said:

"Oriental" is a very loaded term.

Is it necessarily racist? Probably not.

Does using it show that one's world view is at best dated and pretty ignorant?
Absolutely.

When I was in undergrad, Edward Said was required reading for my history classes, with good reason.

Indeed it is loaded enough that police forces stopped using it and replaced it with the code IC5. But if I witnessed a crime I would be much more likely to say Oriental than IC5, in just the same way as describing a North European as white or caucasian rather than IC1. The trouble here is that American (and Italian) does not describe an ethnic origin but rather a nationality. If the description was 4 orientals, 1 mid-easterner, 2 latinos and 1 south european, it would clearly be using outdated terminology but at least it would be internally consistent. If, as is more common, oriental is used to separate out children from East-Asian immigrant families out from children of European immigrant families, it is usually (but not always) done for racist purposes. Context matters.

It is quite possible, perhaps even likely, that all 8 of the described individuals are actually American nationals. That would make usage of the term "Americans" particularly noteworthy and difficult to contextualise. I genuinely find it difficult to explain other than my definition #1 (native American context) or #3 (racist terminology). If Chas again refuses to answer, BBF readers will just have to make up their own minds as to which explanation is the more likely.

[Winstonm]

I don't remember seeing Quotation American on the census form. Is that new?

[Chas_P]

Quote

It is quite possible, perhaps even likely, that all 8 of the described individuals are actually American nationals.

That is very true. But it is not my point. My point was a refutation of Winston's foolishness quoted below.

Quote

IF YOU--NON-WHITE AND IN NEED OF A CHANCE TO LIVE A PEACEFUL AND HELPFUL LIFE--TRY TO MIGRATE TO THIS CHRISTIAN NATION, YOU ARE WELL AND TRULY *****ED.

And I hope you noted that I had "Americans" in quotation marks. It was not intended to imply that "Americans" are superior; I simply meant that we don't all look the same. There were five who obviously weren't "Anglos" and three who obviously were. But all eight were very bright, pleasant human beings regardless of race or nationality. We enjoyed each others' company and nobody felt "TRULY *****ED".

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2022-September-27, 12:42, said:

Sounds like a candidate for the brown shirt book burning barbecue.

Actually I would not want to see it as required reading at the high school level. After last year's fiasco where they tried unsuccessfully to get a One Book assigned in schools this time they are treading softly. When the book club meets I am expecting a wide variety of thoughts on it, I expect it to be an interesting discussion. In high school, or at least in high school when I was young, we were assigned what to read and then we were told what we were to make of it. Not appropriate for this book, or for most books. I started pretty early reading what I wanted and then thinking what I wanted about it. It's the right way to approach this one. When I was 13 I might have made it as far as page 20. When 17 maybe I would have read it all but I am not so sure of that and not so sure what I would have made of it. In the book, the high school puts on a production of Measure for Measure. When I was in HS the censors deleted some passages from the Shakespeare that we read. In M for M they might have deleted the entire text.

Anyway, I recommend the book.

[thepossum]

 Gilithin, on 2022-September-25, 22:12, said:

What does "Americans" mean?

Maybe it is something similar to "Australian" or "British"

My favourite are the "of <insert descriptor> appearance" things the police media put out sometimes

I have no idea what an "American" looks like but I think "Australians" wear shorts, flip-flops/thongs (language translation), carry barbecue tongs and surf boards - apologies for mentioning barbecues too - different context

[kenberg]

"American" could mean almost anyone or any place, as long as the Atlantic is to the East and the Pacific to the West. Of course it usually comes with adjectives. South American, North American, Native American, Irish American, and so on. Maybe the problem begins with naming the nation The United States of America. I hardly want to call myself a United Statesian. The Wik tells me what I once knew but had forgotten. "America" comes from Americus Vespucci. (I remembered that "America" derived from an Italian explorer, I had forgotten the last name). Already that's a bit weird. We do not usually speak of the Albert theory of relativity or Sigmund's theory of dreams. Maybe we should all be Vespuccians.

I usually dislike adjectives in this context. Technically my adoptive father is a Croatian-American but I see it as my father is an American. He came here in 1910 and became a citizen in something like 1938 but he married and bought a house in 1923 and,I am pretty sure, he was never even briefly out of the country since he arrived. Maybe he wasn't an "American in 1911 but surely he was by 1925, at least in all practical everyday terms. WWI ended a little after his 18th birthday, he was not in the service. I imagine he had to register. I can also imagine he did not volunteer.

I suppose Chas could have said "US citizen of European descent" or some such. Except we do not usually ask about citizenship status before we let them sit at a bridge table.

Or we could just let it be.

[barmar]

 hrothgar, on 2022-September-27, 05:21, said:

"Oriental" is a very loaded term.

Is it necessarily racist? Probably not.

Does using it show that one's world view is at best dated and pretty ignorant?
Absolutely.

When I was in undergrad, Edward Said was required reading for my history classes, with good reason.

I have a friend of Chinese heritage (Richard probably knows her, she's a local bridge player). The last time I used the word "oriental" in her presence, she rebuked me. As I understand it, "Asian" is the preferred word these days.