[ahydra]

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Matchpoints. System is 5cM weak NT. If you ask with 3C you will hear 3S which suggests 4-2 in the majors.

Edit: 1C = clubs, 15-19 balanced, 4144/4414, or weak 4441. So after 3C-3S, partner is 4243 or 4234.

ahydra

[Zelandakh]

Do I have a call that makes a slam try in clubs below 3NT? If not, I think I prefer to commit to the 4 level rather than just settling for 3NT. Is 4♦ over 2NT an option?

[wank]

What does 3c show, some sort of checkback? That's pointless.

Anyway yes i'm going to investigate slam. If i can't bid 3c productively , i'll have to bid 4.

[ggwhiz]

Not sure what 3♣ means here but I probably bid it, then 4♣ over 3nt (If that's bid) and then surely we both cue and if 4nt happens it goes float.

[kenberg]

As noted by others, we may need to know more. If 1C shows 1+, I suppose 4=4=4=1 habds are opened 1C. Or at least some are. How about 4=2=4=3 hands?

As I play, which I am pretty sure is different from your agreements, 1C-1H-2NT-3C shows clubs. After which, pard would bid 3H anytime s/he holds three hearts and rebid 3NT with two hearts and only modest clubs. Anyrhing else would accept clubs as trump, at least provisionally. So then, over 1C-1H-2NT-4C-3S, I would bid 4D, a slam try in clubs with at least second round control in diamonds.

It seems clear that is not the way your system works, butI think we need to know more details before we can pick a bid.

As to "interested in slam" the answer is "You bet".

[mike777]

ahydra, on 2016-February-19, 08:10, said:

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Matchpoints. System is 5cM weak NT. If you ask with 3C you will hear 3S which suggests 4-2 in the majors.

ahydra

ok I guess since you play it I will try 3c and now it sounds like pard is 4=2=3=4 shape if so now I will just blast to 6c over 3s.

OPtion2 is 3nt now over 2nt, I can live with either.

[gszes]

The hand belongs somewhere btn 3n and 7c so exploration is definitely needed. How to proceed w/o extensive system notes is tough. Beginning with 3c and hearing the 3s bid at least tells us a lot about openers distribution. Assuming opener indeed has 42 in the majors AND assuming with 43 in the minors they would have opened 1d (don't know how strong that assumption is) we can peg opener's distribution to either 4234 or a very unlikely 4225 since the bidding would probably be different.

With distribution alone and zero HCP from opener our combined hands are worth 8 tricks and opener has shown 18-19 so there is plenty of reason to assume slam is quite plausible. I would suggest 4c to not only sniff at slam but hint that diamonds might be a problem at NT. I am hoping after 4c opener has a 4n sign off try available if they have dia well covered and a non slamish hand. If opener cannot sign off in 4n we will at least hugely increase the odds in favor of 5+ clubs being the final contract.

[ahydra]

Sorry, I'll add more info to the OP (it's a 1C = NAT or BAL system, we open weak 4=4=4=1s with 1C). So after 3C-3S, partner is 4243 or 4234.

Quote

What does 3c show, some sort of checkback? That's pointless.

Yes it's checkback. Why is that pointless? Responder can still have 4 spades and/or 5 hearts. (I'm guessing what you mean is that there are other superior systems, which is almost certainly true.)

ahydra

[kenberg]

1C-1H-2NT-3C-3S. Partner, I assume from what you say, does not know that I have anything in particular in clubs. So far, I would have bid this way any time I had five hearts. Is that right? If that is so, then I have to tell him I have clubs. The auction so far, you say, shows that I can expect him to have either three or four. Four would be nice, but with me holding six I suppose the odds are that he has three, Given my six, three is enough, but will he know that?

Anyway, I bid 4C. Partner I have clubs. but I am not really clear about what I will do next. I suppose that if he bids 4D I will bid 4H, hoping that after his club bid and my club bid that is not seen as an offer to play 4H in a 5-2 fit. If instead of 4D he bids 4S over my 4C, I think I just bid 6C. Presumably we lose a diamond at trick 1, hopefully we take the rest.

So I bid 4C over 3S, really hoping to hear 4S in response.

[StevenG]

We have 29 points maximum, and a lot of controls missing. Slam looks unlikely to me, and I don't understand why people think it so likely. It's matchpoints, so 3NT looks much more sensible to me.

[kenberg]

StevenG, on 2016-February-19, 17:34, said:

We have 29 points maximum, and a lot of controls missing. Slam looks unlikely to me, and I don't understand why people think it so likely. It's matchpoints, so 3NT looks much more sensible to me.

Well, we are told that after 1C-1H-2NT=3C=3S we can play partner for a doubleton heart, and surely this is true. This gives him a four card minor, and he did open 1C. We are told that he might be 4=3=4=3 and bid this way, and I agree that is a reason for caution. But fost let us optimistically assume four clubs. It seems AKxx of clubs and Ax of diamonds gets me to 11 trick. The heart Q or the spade K gets me to 12.
Yes, I am choosing where to place the points, but he did bid 2NT and I am not even close to an 18 count as I place the cards.
[OOPS: My first thought waling up thi morning was that I double counted. The heart Q might be nice for something but then I am not ruffing 2 hearts. Still, I thinkmany hands will produce 12 tricks]
So I think a slam is a definitely possibility. How to be more certain might be tough.

All systems have pluses and minises. My simple approach makes things easier here I think 1C-1H-2NT-3C(showing clubs)-4S( four spades, two hearts, four+ clubs) -4D(second ound control brings partner into the decision process.

And, in the case partner has four diamonds and three clubs it would go 1D-1H-2NT-3C(showing clubs)-3S(four spades, two hearts) and now I can rethink this. Partner has four spades, four+ diamonds and so at most three clubs, maybe two. Now I might back off a bit. Well, probably on this auction partner has 3 clubs. With a 4=2=5=2 shape he might think twice about that 2NT call.

I am not trying to start a row over system, but you ask why I am enthusiastic about a club slam and while I ca imagine other systems slowing me down we are not playing them, so here I go with what I see. Pard opened a club, I hold clubs.

[wank]

ahydra, on 2016-February-19, 15:10, said:

Yes it's checkback. Why is that pointless? Responder can still have 4 spades and/or 5 hearts. (I'm guessing what you mean is that there are other superior systems, which is almost certainly true.)

there are good artificial methods, but, no, i was meaning that your particular artificial method is actually worse than natural. 2NT rebids are nothing like 1NT rebids and it's a mistake to think the same methods should apply.

if you have 5 hearts as responder you can check for 3 card support by rebidding hearts (3H) and seeing if partner raises them.

if you have 4 spades you can bid those (3S) and see if partner raises.

if you have both 5 hearts and 4 spades, you can bid hearts (3h) and see if opener raises them or bids spades (3S).

this frees up the 3 club bid. after all, when one hand has 18-19 slam is not infrequent so you don't want to lose a natural club bid.

An example of a simple but useful artificial method: woolf sign off. 3c = clubs or a 3 level sign off in any suit (puppet to 3d), 3x = nat gf.


So 2nt - 3c - 3d - 4d (slam try for clubs, can define it as a cue or shortage to your taste)

[PhilG007]

ahydra, on 2016-February-19, 08:10, said:

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Matchpoints. System is 5cM weak NT. If you ask with 3C you will hear 3S which suggests 4-2 in the majors.

Edit: 1C = clubs, 15-19 balanced, 4144/4414, or weak 4441. So after 3C-3S, partner is 4243 or 4234.

ahydra

The 1Club bid could be short suit. The majority of the field will be in 3NT so that would be my bid
on the North hand.

[ahydra]

wank, on 2016-February-20, 03:44, said:

there are good artificial methods, but, no, i was meaning that your particular artificial method is actually worse than natural. 2NT rebids are nothing like 1NT rebids and it's a mistake to think the same methods should apply.

if you have 5 hearts as responder you can check for 3 card support by rebidding hearts (3H) and seeing if partner raises them.

if you have 4 spades you can bid those (3S) and see if partner raises.

if you have both 5 hearts and 4 spades, you can bid hearts (3h) and see if opener raises them or bids spades (3S).

this frees up the 3 club bid. after all, when one hand has 18-19 slam is not infrequent so you don't want to lose a natural club bid.

An example of a simple but useful artificial method: woolf sign off. 3c = clubs or a 3 level sign off in any suit (puppet to 3d), 3x = nat gf.


So 2nt - 3c - 3d - 4d (slam try for clubs, can define it as a cue or shortage to your taste)

That makes sense, though playing natural here doesn't synergize with playing transfers over 1C in order to right-side the contract (responder would end up playing the hand in the case of a major fit). Perhaps transfers is an alternative, e.g. 3C = diamonds, 3D = 5+ hearts, 3H = 4+ spades, 3S = clubs (where all except possibly 3D are GF).

Anyway, at the table I wasn't sure what 4C would mean both here and over 3S (the latter should probably be a cue for spades), so I asked with 3C and jumped to 6C over 3S a la mike777. Unfortunately partner only had one ace , instant 0% board. But the main reason for the topic was just to check if I was being too greedy thinking about 6C, which it doesn't look like I was. We later agreed 4C over 2NT would be natural, slam interest, over which partner could ask for aces with 4D to avoid the slam.

ahydra

[gwnn]

Transfers are great. No need to have 3C as game forcing though. Also of course 3S would be clubs, some slam interest, over which 3NT would be negative.

[Zelandakh]

gwnn, on 2016-February-21, 05:18, said:

Transfers are great. No need to have 3C as game forcing though. Also of course 3S would be clubs, some slam interest, over which 3NT would be negative.

This is the type of scheme I had in mind with the first sentence of #2. Transfers over a 2NT rebid have been discussed often here with (inter alia) Mike being a big fan of the method.

[crdshrk]

The real problem is your system's NT range. It is counterproductive. NT ranges should be no more than 3 points in range. I could design hands with your range where game is pretty much hopeless (KQJx QJ Qxx KJxx) and hands where 7C is cold (AKxx xxx Axx AKJx) with this same range. Systems that allow for that kind of ambiguity just don't work. Fix your NT range and you won't have these issues.

[crdshrk]

The real problem is your system's NT range. It is counterproductive. NT ranges should be no more than 3 points in range. I could design hands with your range where game is pretty much hopeless (KQJx QJ Qxx KJxx) and hands where 7C is cold (AKxx xxx Axx AKJx) with this same range. Systems that allow for that kind of ambiguity just don't work. Fix your NT range and you won't have these issues.

[crdshrk]

The real problem is your system's NT range. It is counterproductive. NT ranges should be no more than 3 points in range. I could design hands with your range where game is pretty much hopeless (KQJx QJ Qxx KJxx) and hands where 7C is cold (AKxx xxx Axx AKJx) with this same range. Systems that allow for that kind of ambiguity just don't work. Fix your NT range and you won't have these issues.

[crdshrk]

The real problem is your system's NT range. It is counterproductive. NT ranges should be no more than 3 points in range. I could design hands with your range where game is pretty much hopeless (KQJx QJ Qxx KJxx) and hands where 7C is cold (AKxx xxx Axx AKJx) with this same range. Systems that allow for that kind of ambiguity just don't work. Fix your NT range and you won't have these issues.