[lycier]

Today I encounter a ordinary Gib hand, it goes :

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I remembered a golden rule by Alan Trucott in the past, its general meaning is " Never bid twice with same value". Would you follow this bidding rule?

1- I would follow this rule, for this hand, IMO,showing shapes of opening hand is more important than rebid to show minimum hand in the 2/1 sequences,the better solution is to rebid 3♣ after 2/1 responding, its basic meanings are :
1)- showing 4-card plus suit length with extra values (14+hcp).
2)- showing 5-card plus suit length with minmum values (11-13hcp).
I also think that opener rebid-2♠=6+♠ with 12-15hcp, 2N=5332 shape with 12-14hcp or 18+hcp balance hand, but jump 3♠=6+ cards decent suit with 16+hcp,unbalanced hand,hoping slam try.

2- Gib definitions :
2♠= opener rebid suit---3-♥,5+♠,11-21hcp,12-22TPs,forcing to 3N.
2N=2-4♣,2-3♦,2-3♥,5♠,11-14hcp,12+TPs,forcing to 3N
3♣=New suit --- 4+♣,5+♠,21hcp,16-22TPs,forcing to 3N.
3♠=Jump rebid---21-hcp,strong rebiddable ♠,18-22TPs,forcing.
I think this definition is not good.


3- The definitions from many experts (of course including some USA star players) at BBO:
2♠=5-card ♠ plus without extra values.
I think these have violated this bidding rule, rebid-2♠ is little useful and inefficient, it is a waste .However I really don't know the principle of rebid-2♠,would you tell me? How to define 2♠,2N,3♣ and 3♠?
Any comments are appreciated.

Lycier

[gordontd]

If the 3C rebid shows a strong hand,which it would for many people, then there is no alternative to rebidding 2S.

I don't recognise the standards for a high reverse you give above.

[fromageGB]

While you can define bidding sequences (within regulatory constraints)to mean whatever you want, yo need to play the same methods as your partner, and here if your partner is GIB, GIB's methods apply. Those methods (presumably as stated by your point 2) mean that your comments of point 1 are not relevant. Perhaps you need to select your partners better!

Point 3 asks why 2♠ is as it is. Of course this is a system choice and there are many alternatives, but you do need a way at some stage in the bidding to show what sort of strength you have. This way describes 2NT as balanced and very limited, anything else other than 2♠ as very strong, which means that 2♠ is very wide-ranging in both strength and distribution. These would not be my definitions either, but that is the system you agreed with partner.

Playing this way, I believe you need to allow opener further bid(s) to describe his hand, so you should bid 2NT to see what opener rebids, as on different hands this may be 3♦ or 3♠. 2♦ is GF, so 2NT is GF too. When North rebids 3♣ I think you need to rebid 3NT, so you end in the same poor contract, but that is perhaps the inevitable result of GIB methods.

[Hanoi5]

Playing 2/1 there is a need for a 'catch-all' bid after a 2/1 sequence. Some people play rebidding opener's suit to be the catch-all bid, for all the hands you can't do anything more useful. Going to the three level, like in 3♣ in this case, shows a much better hand, 14+.

[kenberg]

Another vote for 2NT over 2S. Partner might or might not have six spades (as I, and I guess GIB, play it)

This is not a fast/slow arrival thing where 2NT shows extras, it simply means that responder is unsure of where the hand should be played. [And that he considers 3NT to be in the running]


I think 1S-2D-3C should show extras, but this can be, at least partly, extra length. But (another but) that club suit is barely five cards long, so I can see a 2S rebid.


To say that these hands don't fit well is to engage in severe understatement. Looking only at the NS cards, if diamonds are 3-3 or the J comes down doubleton you do have 9 tricks in NT. 4S seems iffy if spades are 4-2, 5C looks very tough missing KQJ and a couple of spots. Having the 8 in the dummy will help.

I guess that 4S makes as they lie. Opening lead is the club K, you take it and play three rounds of spades and breathe a sigh of relief. If they are clever they switch to a heart, but you have the timing, and you have the club 8 on the board. Rise with the ace and play the club 8. You have the control to withstand the heart attack while developing clubs. If the defense starts with a heart at trick 1, as they might if N shows his clubs, this might get more difficult.

At any rate, 3NT is not great but looking only at NS hands I don't see any great contract.

[Stephen Tu]

lycier, on 2016-February-21, 23:05, said:

I remembered a golden rule by Alan Trucott in the past, its general meaning is " Never bid twice with same value". Would you follow this bidding rule?

You try not to make multiple bids showing no extra information voluntarily, but sometimes partner has forced you to bid, and other considerations (more tightly defining the meaning of other bids) force you to make a low catchall default bid so that your other bids can be better defined.

Consider the problems with 1s-2d-3c being anywhere from 12-21 points still. Responder with a little extra may be unsure whether to just bid 3nt, or raise clubs and explore for a club slam. If opener can still have a 12 count, 3nt might be the last making game. But failure to raise might miss the slam, because after 1s-2d-3c-3nt, opener doesn't know if responder has 12/13 or 16/17, again 3nt might be the limit. That is why most good player require extra value for this type of "high reverse" sequence. Kokish actually recommend this high reverse show extra AND 5-5, and bid 2s waiting a lot.

Also consider the problems if 2nt doesn't promise stopper unbid suit. Does responder probe and expose yourself to lead directing double, or just bid 3nt and find off first 5-6 tricks when 4M on a 5-2 fit or 5m would have made? Or end up with 3nt down because the stopper is unprotected from the lead.

Quote

I think these have violated this bidding rule, rebid-2♠ is little useful and inefficient, it is a waste .However I really don't know the principle of rebid-2♠,would you tell me? How to define 2♠,2N,3♣ and 3♠?

3♠ jump rebid of opener's major is usually played as extra values and either no loser suit or solid missing ace (KQJTxx). Some relax the suit quality requirement. The advantage of play solid is that responder with singleton doesn't worry some other suit better, doesn't worry about multi trump loser if play slam. Disadvantage of play solid is that it make the bid rarely utilize, and sometimes come sequence like 1s-2d-2s-3c-3s-4s and no one know if other player have more than minimum opener and slam can potentially be missed.

3♣ show extra value (~15/16+), sometime also 5-5+

2nt is usually played as 12-14 or 18/19, with stoppers in the unbid. A minority, Bergen disciples, use 2nt as "catchall", not 6 spades, not suitable for high reverse. This has the advantage of having the 2M rebid promise 6 cds, but the disadvantage of stopper ambiguity and possibly ending in 3nt from the wrong side of the table. An even tinier minority, play things like "Shuler shift" where 2nt = 6+ spades, 2s = catchall, or "Martel shift" where 2H (being cheapest call by opener) = catchall, 2S = hearts (since your catchall replaced it).

2s is catchall (not suited other bids) if not playing something else as the catchall.

As for "inefficient", you have to consider the entire auction. Compare 1s-2d-3c, where 3c is 12-21, opener has shown spade + club, but still unlimited, vs. 1s-2d-2s-2nt-3c, where opener has also shown spade + club but now limited, and responder has also made a 2nd bid defining his hand better. More information has been exchanged and you are at the same level. Which is more efficient?

It's normal to bid 2nt as responder 2nd round a lot, not jump to 3nt. This allow further room opener describe hand. 3nt usually reserve for some extra value, 16-17, where you more likely to just make 3nt on power even opener shapely, and you want to show that extra value in case slam is there, but really don't have the 18-19+ you'd want to bid 2nt then 4nt.