[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2016-May-23, 11:46, said:

This rather misses the point Stefanie. If Britain were outside of the EU it would not mean that we could opt out of regulations that we deem unsuitable. Part of the cost of getting tariff-free access to the free market is signing up to all of those policies regardless of how suitable they might be.

The difference will be that those regulations are even less suitable for the UK if we are not part of the negotiations. Any "red lines" that get crossed, and for certain they would, would mean either accepting expensive trade tariffs or sucking it up. Neither would be good for the economy.

Of course a lot of that could be mitigated by using the cash that is saved. It seems likely that the result in the long term would be a loss of competitiveness for British businesses though.

Am I wrong in this ? Most of what Britain exports is actually services rather than goods, and there's not a fully free market in services anyway.

We could opt out of the bits we didn't like, but we'd need to negociate a deal with the EU as countries outside Europe have to, rather than the Norway/Switzerland model.

There are advantages in not being in the EU. France has vetoed trade deals with South America we want to protect its farmers for example.

I think there's common agreement that the pound would fall in the short term, which would aid competitiveness, the doubt is about the long term.

[shyams]

hrothgar, on 2016-May-23, 12:01, said:

I thought that the reason that Britain joined the EU was an attempt to outgrow "perfidious Albion"

There was an old "Yes, Minister" episode where Sir Humphrey explains how Britain HAD TO join the EU simply in order to play the system from the inside. Perfidious Albion survives & thrives, albeit in a more evolved/less visible form.

[Zelandakh]

shyams, on 2016-May-24, 02:58, said:

There was an old "Yes, Minister" episode where Sir Humphrey explains how Britain HAD TO join the EU simply in order to play the system from the inside. Perfidious Albion survives & thrives, albeit in a more evolved/less visible form.

This one. As with the best political satire, it is based on a certain grain of truth. English (and later British) European policy has always been to prevent any one country from becoming too powerful directly across The Channel, whether that be Spain, France or Germany. That goes back to English power being based around control of the sea. Whether such factors still apply you can judge for yourself.

[cherdano]

http://www.theguardi...t-boost-cameron

Quote

Nine out of 10 of the country’s top economists working across academia, the City, industry, small businesses and the public sector believe the British economy will be harmed by Brexit, according to the biggest survey of its kind ever conducted.

But the EU killed our fisheries, buhuuuuu!!!

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2016-May-28, 16:28, said:

http://www.theguardi...t-boost-cameron

Probably all the same economists that said we were crazy not to join the Euro. Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of confidence in that sort of forecast, particularly when the survey seems to be commissioned by the most pro-EU paper of them all.

[cherdano]

Hedge funds are commissioning private brexit exit polls.

https://www.rt.com/u...ls-hedge-funds/

I am sure they are all planning to bet on the economic boom following brexit, coming from saving 6 billion GBP per year, and from being able to kick out EU immigrants (such as myself).

[cherdano]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-May-28, 17:44, said:

Probably all the same economists that said we were crazy not to join the Euro. Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of confidence in that sort of forecast, particularly when the survey seems to be commissioned by the most pro-EU paper of them all.

I was a teenager when the Euro was introduced. I remember that for a while I was against it, because it would deprive an economically struggling country from the opportunity to boost its economy by devaluing its currency...
My point is not that I was such a smart and prescient teenager. My point is that I must have gotten this from somewhere. I highly doubt economists were as much in favour of the Euro then as they are against Brexit now.

[Winstonm]

cherdano, on 2016-June-01, 02:46, said:

I was a teenager when the Euro was introduced. I remember that for a while I was against it, because it would deprive an economically struggling country from the opportunity to boost its economy by devaluing its currency...
My point is not that I was such a smart and prescient teenager. My point is that I must have gotten this from somewhere. I highly doubt economists were as much in favour of the Euro then as they are against Brexit now.

When I was seventeen
it was a very good euro

[Cyberyeti]

Winstonm, on 2016-June-01, 12:57, said:

When I was seventeen
it was a very good euro

But as our government suspected the "United States of Europe" project demanded lots of countries would have their entry criteria fudged to allow them in when they had no business getting in, and it went horribly downhill. There is lots of residual suspicion from this.

[fromageGB]

Winstonm, on 2016-June-01, 12:57, said:

When I was seventeen
it was a very good euro

Ah, when I was 17, the pound was worth something

[fromageGB]

"Residual suspicion"? The initial suspicion has been consolidated and enlarged by subsequent events, so hardly residual. They want us in so we can help bail out Greece, then Spain, and I'm not sure which next, Italy or Turkey?

[Zelandakh]

fromageGB, on 2016-June-01, 15:33, said:

They want us in so we can help bail out Greece, then Spain, and I'm not sure which next, Italy or Turkey?

Statements like this are taken straight from the Farage handbook and displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what the EU represents for countries like Germany. Could you provide any evidence at all other than basic xenophobia supporting the statement?

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2016-June-02, 06:48, said:

Statements like this are taken straight from the Farage handbook and displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what the EU represents for countries like Germany. Could you provide any evidence at all other than basic xenophobia supporting the statement?

Britain is a major cash cow for the EU, but we've already negociated optouts for having to put right issues with the Euro zone.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-02, 07:15, said:

Britain is a major cash cow for the EU, but we've already negociated optouts for having to put right issues with the Euro zone.

What so wrong with Rich brits helping out the poor of Europe..I thought that was the whole point...


Now if the Brits dont have the cash...the issue is moot...they should get the cash from Germany or france.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2016-June-02, 17:55, said:

What so wrong with Rich brits helping out the poor of Europe..I thought that was the whole point...


Now if the Brits dont have the cash...the issue is moot...they should get the cash from Germany or france.

France doesn't have the cash either, they're grossly mismanaging their economy, and the unions are in revolt, striking if the government does anything to bring employment law and conditions into the modern age.

The Brits are prepared to help out the poorer countries, but not to pay for the fraud that got them into the Euro.

[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-02, 18:33, said:

France doesn't have the cash either, they're grossly mismanaging their economy, and the unions are in revolt, striking if the government does anything to bring employment law and conditions into the modern age.

The Brits are prepared to help out the poorer countries, but not to pay for the fraud that got them into the Euro.

You do know that history tells us you cannot have one without fraud, massive fraud.... it is the cost of doing it.


Blame people choosing to act in their own private self interest.

[Zelandakh]

mike777, on 2016-June-02, 20:37, said:

Blame people choosing to act in their own private self interest.

What people seem to be forgetting is that helping the developing countries of Europe is in the self-interest of the larger ones. As the smaller countries become richer, they buy more products from Germans, France and the UK. This is the point. The EU is worth a huge amount for Germany because it provides a cheap export market that grows through the EU investment. The currency effect of the Euro is an additional, and very lucrative, bonus. The UK people need to understand that if "Project Europe" fails, so does the UK economy. The economy does not operate in a vacuum, or even, paradoxically, on an island. The whole debate seems very much to be on an "us and them" level, whereas we really need to be seeing Europe as our customers.

[Winstonm]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-02, 18:33, said:

France doesn't have the cash either, they're grossly mismanaging their economy, and the unions are in revolt, striking if the government does anything to bring employment law and conditions into the modern age.

If this is accurate, it points to an interesting paradox from a U.S.A. point of view. Over here, the Right Wing tries to sell the idea that France is the most socialistic of the European countries, and socialism is the enemy of democracy; yet, democracy is all about the government following the will of the people, so "socialist" France is actually displaying the greatest degree of democracy.

[Cyberyeti]

Winstonm, on 2016-June-03, 08:48, said:

If this is accurate, it points to an interesting paradox from a U.S.A. point of view. Over here, the Right Wing tries to sell the idea that France is the most socialistic of the European countries, and socialism is the enemy of democracy; yet, democracy is all about the government following the will of the people, so "socialist" France is actually displaying the greatest degree of democracy.

Not really, the unions know that they can hold the country to ransom with acts of violence and the government will cave in. This is not democracy, it is the hard left unions bullying the elected government.

[Winstonm]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-03, 09:45, said:

Not really, the unions know that they can hold the country to ransom with acts of violence and the government will cave in. This is not democracy, it is the hard left unions bullying the elected government.

Let me ask this: in a true democracy, to what factions does the government respond with policy?