[onoway]

What is the advantage of demanding a 2/1 response be a 5 card suit if a major? If p opens a & responder has 13 hcp and ♥KQJx in a 3433 hand what is the advantage of bidding a minor instead of the ♥ suit? I don't have the hand that generated this discussion ( a general point that came up in a kib box) but as a rule I thought the idea was to show your partner your hand as clearly as possible. So why waste a bid ( or so it seems to me) on a 3 card minor when you already know you aren't going to be playing in it and it is far from being your best suit?

[1eyedjack]

1) the distinction between a 3 card minor and a 4 card minor is likely to be less relevant to the optimal contract than is the distinction between a 4 card heart suit and a 5 card heart suit.

2) in practice 2H will be based on a 5+ card suit the overwhelming majority of the time even if systemically it might have been on 4. So statistically partner will expect 5, and meeting partner's expectations is a route to nirvana.

[Kungsgeten]

1♠-2♥ takes up a lot of space, so we want the bid to have a good definition. Making it game forcing is a start, but it may still not be enough when responder can have a 12 point 3433 or a 17 point 0733.

Another point is finding fits, and our primary concern is to find the major fit, or possibly a minor fit for slam purposes, or a minor fit because 3NT is a poor contract. After 1♠-2♥, showing 4+, is opener supposed to only raise with four, or can he raise with three? If four then you're okay, and you will discover a double fit at the same time (since with 4♥4m32 you would probably respond with your minor). However 4333 is pretty poor for slam purposes, so showing the double fit may make partner too excited (perhaps he's hoping you have 3541 or similar). If partner only raises with 4, how are you supposed to show that you actually had a five card suit? Perhaps you could lie and rebid a minor at the 3-level (in case partner rebid 2♠ or 2NT; as I said 2♥ takes up a lot of space), but then it will be very hard to find a fit in that minor suit the times where you have 5-4 or 5-5 and slam interest.

So what if partner raises with 3 hearts, but is only allowed raising to 3♥ with 3 card support (can't bid 4♥ or splinter with 3 card support)? Then you could show your three card spades suit, and insist on playing that as trumps. This will, however, make it hard to play a 4-4 fit when opener has 5-4 majors (or 5-5 majors). For slam purposes its really nice knowing you have a nine card fit, and if partner can have three or four for a raise to 3♥, you will not know.

Now what if we respond 2♣ with 3433 instead? Opener will not raise a minor suit with three card support, you'd need four card support for that, and many people even like to have extra values for raising to 3m. This means that opener will rebid 2♥ if he has four. Now you've found your fit! The only exception to this might be if opener has 5404 and choose to raise clubs, but you could decide that he always rebids 2♥ with that pattern.


You have a good point in that a 2♣ response won't show your hand as clearly as possible, but it makes the rest of the bidding easier. The modern trend is to make the 2♣ response show even less clubs; some play it as 2+ clubs (any GF balanced hand, or unbalanced with clubs) and some play it as basically any GF hand (so could be 0 clubs). The reason for this is not only to make the 2♦ response show 5+ diamonds (or perhaps some other use, if 2♣ is done on almost any GF hand), but to use the "balanced hands ask" principle: It is usually better for balanced hands to ask partner what he has, since it will be easier to evaluate your hand now.

[Tramticket]

Responding 2H on a five card suit allows you to identify 5-3 fits. Partner can rebid 2H after the 2-of-a-minor response and you can identify 4-4 heart fits. If you respond 2H on a 4-card suit you take up a lot of bidding space - you find your 4-4 fits, but will sometimes miss the 5-3 fits.

[kenberg]

Not really different from what others are saying: An opener with fove spades will have three hearts far more often than he will have four. When he has three, and if responder has five, it goes 1S-2H-3H and trump is established.

This might not be worth it if you lost the 4-4, but you don't Then it goes 1S-2m-2H-3H. Trump is established.

Whether 1S-2S should show fie is perhaps a less settles issue. With many I play that it does. 1M-2D-3D and we have our eight card fit on a 5-3. You have to pay the bill though. If 1S-2red shows five then 1S-2C can be on 3, or even on 2 if responder has 3=4=4=2 and plans to show his spade support after first establishing the gf. I think it is probably worth the cost, but there is a downside.

Playing this way we alert both 1M-2D (shows five) and 1M-2C (gf, but could be short in clubs). I don't alert 1S-2H since I think five cards is the general expectation, but perhaps it should be. If I were playing somewhere that 2/1 auctions are less common then I probably would alert.

[jogs]

1♠ - ?

??? KQJx ??? ???

Unless opener has 4 hearts, why would you want to introduce hearts? After 1♠ - 2♣, opener will rebid 2♥ with 4 hearts.

[1eyedjack]

jogs, on 2016-June-07, 07:43, said:

1♠ - ?

??? KQJx ??? ???

Unless opener has 4 hearts, why would you want to introduce hearts? After 1♠ - 2♣, opener will rebid 2♥ with 4 hearts.

Well, if opener has 4 cards in responder's bid minor, there is at least a case for suggesting that it would be of some value to opener to know if there is a fit in that suit. It is not all one-way traffic

[Phil]

Kungsgeten explained things quite nicely.

[NickRW]

You might as well ask why play 5 card majors. People can and do play 4 card majors, but most do not, thinking it better to define the major opening more closely.

[helene_t]

Ken:
>>Playing this way we alert both 1M-2D (shows five) and 1M-2C (gf, but could be short in clubs). I don't alert 1S-2H since I think five cards is the general expectation, but perhaps it should be. If I were playing somewhere that 2/1 auctions are less common then I probably would alert.
[/quote]

No, 2H shows five in all natural systems. It is not a 2/1 thing. So you don't have to alert it.

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2016-June-07, 11:29, said:

No, 2H shows five in all natural systems. It is not a 2/1 thing. So you don't have to alert it.

Thanks. That's pretty much what i thought. There are people who do not play 2H shows five and, as you might imagine, they are usually not 2/1 players. Usually they also are not players who spend any time thinking about whether an opponent has or has not shown five. So my thinking was sort of "I might let them know, since they may not think it shows five, but I doubt they give a hoot anyway".

But it is good to hear that my general instincts on this not being alertable are right. When I am president I will scrap the current alert system and replace it by something terrific.

[fromageGB]

If playing forcing NT you don't have to bid a 3 card minor. With 13-15 just bid 1NT and wait to see what opener rebids. You will not miss a heart game.

To show the 3433 when 16+, play that 2♣ is any one of ...
- 5+ clubs and 13+ hcp
- 3 spades and 11+
- 16+ balanced
Now opener's almost compulsory 2♦ asks, and ...
- 2♥ = 4 hearts and 16+hcp

Great for distinguishing responder's strengths, with plenty of room for developments.

[dmd4]

1eyedjack, on 2016-June-06, 23:18, said:

1) the distinction between a 3 card minor and a 4 card minor is likely to be less relevant to the optimal contract than is the distinction between a 4 card heart suit and a 5 card heart suit.

2) in practice 2H will be based on a 5+ card suit the overwhelming majority of the time even if systemically it might have been on 4. So statistically partner will expect 5, and meeting partner's expectations is a route to nirvana.

I believe the question was if partner opens a minor suit and he has 4 hearts and 13+ points

[dmd4]

onoway, on 2016-June-06, 22:52, said:

What is the advantage of demanding a 2/1 response be a 5 card suit if a major? If p opens a & responder has 13 hcp and ♥KQJx in a 3433 hand what is the advantage of bidding a minor instead of the ♥ suit? I don't have the hand that generated this discussion ( a general point that came up in a kib box) but as a rule I thought the idea was to show your partner your hand as clearly as possible. So why waste a bid ( or so it seems to me) on a 3 card minor when you already know you aren't going to be playing in it and it is far from being your best suit?

I believe he is asking what if partner opened with a minor and he has 4 hearts and 13+ points

[Gilithin]

dmd4, on 2021-July-16, 07:01, said:

I believe he is asking what if partner opened with a minor and he has 4 hearts and 13+ points

No, the clue in the OP is where he mentions a "2/1 response". This thread (from 2016) was specifically about the auction 1♠ - 2♥ and why it is correct to respond 1♠ - 2♣ with a 3433 hand of suitable strength.