[Cyberyeti]

---

So partner forgets your relay, fails to alert and bids 4♥. You haven't guaranteed more than 4 hearts by relaying, just that you're inv+ and he can bid a GF 3♥ over 2♥ with a maximum and 2N with a minimum with 3 hearts, clearly he doesn't have 4 or doesn't bid 2♦ so 4♥ seriously doesn't exist.

What can you assume now, particularly in the light of the double ?

[weejonnie]

I think you can assume partner has just discovered his A♦ is actually the A♥

Alternatively you could prepare to justify fielding a misbid - (which is allowed under EBU regulations, although the guidance isn't clear) I assume you have an agreement to always raise 1♥ to 2♥ with 4 card support - so it is probable that the AI allows you to assume a bidding misunderstanding. Your problem will be that if you tank then PARTNER may wake up to the fact that your 2♥ call was a relay.

Personally I think you are up the creek and you had better hope partner's 3 card support is the AKQ and he holds very good Diamonds and bid 5♦. You KNOW the hearts aren't breaking - but the diamonds might be and you do have 3 quick tricks to go with them.

At the end of the auction, before a card is faced, you will of course call the director and tell the opponents that the 2♥ call was a relay - just so they have the chance of doubling you in 5♦.

[barmar]

weejonnie, on 2016-August-11, 14:56, said:

Your problem will be that if you tank then PARTNER may wake up to the fact that your 2♥ call was a relay.

As long as he doesn't act on this UI (except maybe to belatedly alert the 2♥ bid), I think you're still OK.

[sanst]

You can assume anything you want, even that you will win the lottery six times in a row. I think you want to know what bids you have that don't make use of rhe UI, which results from your partner's failure to alert the 2♥ bid. If the 4♥ is truly impossible in this sequence, you have the AI that your partner has made a mistake somewhere. But you can't be sure where. Think screens, what would you do now?
As a player I would pass; anything else could even be more disastrous than that. Of course you should inform the opps about the missing alert at before the lead is made.

[weejonnie]

barmar, on 2016-August-11, 15:07, said:

As long as he doesn't act on this UI (except maybe to belatedly alert the 2♥ bid), I think you're still OK.

Oh yes - although it leads to the strange position where he has to explain to the opponents one thing and act on another. I was just trying to cover all bases.

[wank]

you can run away, but i wouldn't. i don't see how 4nt is going to be a better contract on a misfit with minimal values. i'd just hope to scramble tricks on a cross-ruff (p is likely short in a black suit). rho didn't overcall 1H so he probably doesn't have 5. he might well be doubling based on diamonds which would be terrible for 4nt.

[Cyberyeti]

weejonnie, on 2016-August-11, 14:56, said:

I think you can assume partner has just discovered his A♦ is actually the A♥

Alternatively you could prepare to justify fielding a misbid - (which is allowed under EBU regulations, although the guidance isn't clear) I assume you have an agreement to always raise 1♥ to 2♥ with 4 card support - so it is probable that the AI allows you to assume a bidding misunderstanding. Your problem will be that if you tank then PARTNER may wake up to the fact that your 2♥ call was a relay.

Personally I think you are up the creek and you had better hope partner's 3 card support is the AKQ and he holds very good Diamonds and bid 5♦. You KNOW the hearts aren't breaking - but the diamonds might be and you do have 3 quick tricks to go with them.

At the end of the auction, before a card is faced, you will of course call the director and tell the opponents that the 2♥ call was a relay - just so they have the chance of doubling you in 5♦.

He is VERY unlikely to even have 3 hearts, if he has 3, he will have 6 good diamonds and a good hand in context to have not just bid 2♥.

I bid 4♠ at which point partner woke up and gave the explanation of what had happened X-P-P-P.

[ggwhiz]

I think you might be ok to bid 4♠ if you can back up that relay thing with 4♥ not existing but you would have to tell me how you bid a modest hand with 6 decent hearts and have denied it with a 2♥ bid as well and I'm not likely to simply take your word for it.

I need a lot more overall context for a system that apparently can't stop low in a heart partscore.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2016-August-11, 16:41, said:

I think you might be ok to bid 4♠ if you can back up that relay thing with 4♥ not existing but you would have to tell me how you bid a modest hand with 6 decent hearts and have denied it with a 2♥ bid as well and I'm not likely to simply take your word for it.

I need a lot more overall context for a system that apparently can't stop low in a heart partscore.

We decided we have to pass 2♦ unless we're prepared to play 3♥, 1♦-1♥-2♦ is always 6.

[Vampyr]

weejonnie, on 2016-August-11, 15:25, said:

Oh yes - although it leads to the strange position where he has to explain to the opponents one thing and act on another. I was just trying to cover all bases.

This is not strange; it is pretty normal in UI situations.

[sanst]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-August-11, 16:04, said:

I bid 4♠ at which point partner woke up and gave the explanation of what had happened X-P-P-P.

Again, what now? Partner is probably short in the black suits, so you might end in 5♦x, which is as bad or even worse as 4♥x. Or partner thinks it's a cue and bids slam.

[Zelandakh]

You need to tell us your structure in more detail. Relay systems often use a concept known as zooming, where the most expensive hand type can make otherwise impossible bids. Relay systems also often have special rules on what things mean after an opposing double, so it would be good to know these. If one of pass or XX would be a further relay, it seems to me that that might well be a LA and certainly less likely to wake partner up than 4♠. In other words, I have my doubts whether 4♠ was really carefully avoiding taking advantage but we need to know more about the methods to be able to judge that properly.

[Cyberyeti]

sanst, on 2016-August-12, 02:24, said:

Again, what now? Partner is probably short in the black suits, so you might end in 5♦x, which is as bad or even worse as 4♥x. Or partner thinks it's a cue and bids slam.

It's never a cue, I would just have redoubled and collected the overtrick(s).

[Cyberyeti]

The punchline to this is that the defence found an unfortunate club lead which meant that the 500 they should have extracted vanished, partner's hand was something like KJ2, xxx, AKJxxx, Q, diamonds 3-3 Q offside, I misplayed and went -1 when I could have made it (trumps were 5-1 onside, that RHO can't ruff a winning diamond after one round of trumps is critical) and opps were happy with their 200, had I made it, I wondered what would have been done.

[ggwhiz]

Playing such methods is imo opinion the kiss of death when you are faced with a ruling. The Director will never understand and there are no peers to poll.

Even with the most comprehensive system notes you rate to get blank stares all around and a most unfavorable ruling. I am strongly in favor of your right to play this stuff but when it goes off the rails you are, or should be doomed.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2016-August-12, 16:22, said:

Playing such methods is imo opinion the kiss of death when you are faced with a ruling. The Director will never understand and there are no peers to poll.

Even with the most comprehensive system notes you rate to get blank stares all around and a most unfavorable ruling. I am strongly in favor of your right to play this stuff but when it goes off the rails you are, or should be doomed.

Well TBF in this case there were some players around that could have formed a sensible appeals committee or been polled and would have understood the issues.

[jallerton]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-August-11, 14:21, said:

---

So partner forgets your relay, fails to alert and bids 4♥. You haven't guaranteed more than 4 hearts by relaying, just that you're inv+ and he can bid a GF 3♥ over 2♥ with a maximum and 2N with a minimum with 3 hearts, clearly he doesn't have 4 or doesn't bid 2♦ so 4♥ seriously doesn't exist.

What can you assume now, particularly in the light of the double ?

Cyberyeti, on 2016-August-11, 16:04, said:

He is VERY unlikely to even have 3 hearts, if he has 3, he will have 6 good diamonds and a good hand in context to have not just bid 2♥.

I bid 4♠ at which point partner woke up and gave the explanation of what had happened X-P-P-P.

If the 2♥ bid is very (in capitals) unlikely to hold 3 hearts, why do you use two of the five cheapest available call over the relay to show hands with 3 hearts?

[paulg]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-August-11, 14:21, said:

So partner forgets your relay, fails to alert and bids 4♥. You haven't guaranteed more than 4 hearts by relaying, just that you're inv+ and he can bid a GF 3♥ over 2♥ with a maximum and 2N with a minimum with 3 hearts, clearly he doesn't have 4 or doesn't bid 2♦ so 4♥ seriously doesn't exist.

In a context where partner had alerted and explained the relay correctly, you would be sitting there trying to understand what random hands he would bid like this. I suspect you would think that his 2♦ was the misbid rather than the 4♥ and would pass, thinking partner has four small hearts, one more than he had when he bid 2♦. The double could easily be based on four good trumps and the fact that both of you might be minimum.

In a context where partner did not alert the relay, your mindset is that 4♥ is the misbid so it's very difficult to think about what to do without taking an enormous amount of time. This is why UI problems are so difficult at the table.

[Manastorm]

I dont think you can assume missbid at all. All you know is that partner alerted 2♥ and nevertheless chose 4♥. What you can think of it is unclear. Assuming relay responses cover all the possible hands, you are more or less facing a situation where a gibberish system is presented to you and you are left with an undefined 4♥ response. I would pass in that case for sure. When you are doubled, how likely would you do anything. I would pass and let partner clarify, if there is something to do.

I take back alert part as you should not be allowed to know that a bid was alerted even when it was. So you cannot be forced to assume so in case of no alert either.

[Cyberyeti]

jallerton, on 2016-August-14, 02:16, said:

If the 2♥ bid is very (in capitals) unlikely to hold 3 hearts, why do you use two of the five cheapest available call over the relay to show hands with 3 hearts?

Not the 2♥ bid, the 2♦ bid. Partner can also have 7♦/3♥.

The reason for the system (which may be slightly inefficient in this particular case) is so that all the 1m-new suit-2same m-2next suit up auctions work exactly the same way for ease of memory.