[Flame]

respnding to 1c with some transfer structure looks like a good idea to me.1d=H 1h=S. without a negative response, then bidding the major by the 1 cluber will be a relay and will have enough time to find out on respnder strengh and distribution.
transfer structures are used in some 2/1 system and polish club systems, but i never heard of any precision 1c with it. I seems to me it can work very well.
Does anyone play this (here or a known player ?)

[the hog]

Meckwell play transfer responses.
Also if you want a comprehensive system with a lot of detail, have a look at Dwayne's Keylime Precision. This also uses transfer responses to 1C.

To correct an error in your post:
Two way club systems like Polish Club, Svan etc very rarely use transfers to 1C, as the 1D response is required for a negative. There is only one version I can think of that uses transfers and that is "Koscki" -see Dan Neill's web site.

A fully worked 2/1 system that does is Josh Sher's "Supernatural". Quite a few modern Italian systems use this method also eg Bocchi-Duboin, and also "Nightmare".

Ron

[Flame]

The_Hog, on May 25 2004, 07:29 PM, said:

Meckwell play transfer responses.
Also if you want a comprehensive system with a lot of detail, have a look at Dwayne's Keylime Precision. This also uses transfer responses to 1C.

To correct an error in your post:
Two way club systems like Polish Club, Svan etc very rarely use transfers to 1C, as the 1D response is required for a negative. There is only one version I can think of that uses transfers and that is "Koscki" -see Dan Neill's web site.

A fully worked 2/1 system that does is Josh Sher's "Supernatural". Quite a few modern Italian systems use this method also eg Bocchi-Duboin, and also "Nightmare".

Ron

As far as i know RM precision use 1d as a negative response, yes they bid 1h with spades, but not 1d with hearts. same goes for KLP precision
I was reffering to a polish club like, which used by the bulgarian, showed here by misho. also nightmare is a polish club like system.
bocchi duboin is a good example of a 2/1 system that use this kind of transf.
I think thorecticly this kind of trns will be suited for precision even better then to the semi natural 1c bid by those other systems.

[the hog]

Rumen - Kalin play a 15+ C opening, not the Polish C 12+. Nightmare bears no resemblance to Polish Club whatsoever. It has a weak garbage catch all NT to start with and also a 15+ C opening.

I have already mentioned Sher's system as a very worked 2/1 style.

[Flame]

The_Hog, on May 25 2004, 07:48 PM, said:

Rumen - Kalin play a 15+ C opening, not the Polish C 12+. Nightmare bears no resemblance to Polish Club whatsoever. It has a weak garbage catch all NT to start with and also a 15+ C opening.

I have already mentioned Sher's system as a very worked 2/1 style.

rumen kalin when vul play 1c and 1d just the same as polish club, when nv its just a range of hcp difrent, just like nightmare.

[keylime]

KLP uses at 1♦ either 0-7 OR 15+ unbalanced - RM has 1♦ strictly reserved as a negative (since their follow-ons are normally 2/1 based at this juncture).

I'll say this - transfer responses really help matters because now with the acceptance of the xfer bid into the known suit, that can be your TAB (if using that tool - KLP doesn't use TABs at ALL -- we use instead low level 1430 asks for trump/hand quality). And, you can finally rightside a NT contract more often!

[the hog]

"rumen kalin when vul play 1c and 1d just the same as polish club, when nv its just a range of hcp difrent, just like nightmare."

As I have played PC for well over a year, and have also dabbled in Nightmare, the above comes as a surprise to me.
I think it might also come as a surprise to both Rumen and Kalin and also to Versace and Lauria, lol.

Perhaps you would like to explain to me how a 12-15 bal, or 16+ natural C, or 19+ any bears any resemblance to just 15+ balanced up to GF+. And while you are at it explain to me how the 11-14 garbage most shapes NT used in Nightmare bears any resemblance to a 15+ to -18 Polish style NT.

However perhaps my skill in languages such as English is not up to yours. Interestingly enough though, I did read the original book in Italian and also the English translation.

[Flame]

The_Hog, on May 25 2004, 08:17 PM, said:

rumen kalin when vul play 1c and 1d just the same as polish club, when nv its just a range of hcp difrent, just like nightmare.

As I have played PC for well over a year, and have also dabbled in Nightmare, the above comes as a surprise to me.
I think it might also come as a surprise to both Rumen and Kalin and also to Versace and Lauria, lol.

lol i hope you like surprises. Maybe you need to read those systems again.
Its hard for me to understand what you dont understand, maybe its just a matter of definitions, but for me when the system openings are almost identical to polish club then its enough to say this system is a polish club like system.

[Flame]

This became a debate about polish club, which is out of the point.
As i see it, losing the 1d negative as done by rumen kalin and suggested here after precision 1c is done for 1 main resson, delivering responder distribution ifnormation quickly , this will benifit mostly if the LHO of respnder is going to interfier. without an interfirence i think 1d negative will probelby be supirior.
My task then is to try and constract a system that will be just as good or not too much worse then normal precision when there is no interfirence.
one begining of a structure that i just made:
1c 1d/1h = 4 card h/s
1h/1s = 3 card h/s
other bids are natural and i wont discussed them here.

I'll only give a structue after 1h response since 1d should make this easier (actually give you more choices and its harder) , i tried to bid 1nt by respnder only when we have 8 card major fit, to avoid responder declerering NT, this make things a bit harder.

after
1c 1h
1s ?
1NT = any hand with 5 card spade
2C = 4S 5D NF 0-6 hcp (just a range i choose)
2D = 4S 5D NF 0-6 hcp
2H = 4S 5C 7+ Forcing
2S = 4S 5D 7+ Forcing

[Flame]

i forgot all about balanced hands with 4 card M, so this structure doesnt worth much, ill think about it tomorrow, as i see it, probebly i cant make it that NT will not be played from responder hand, after 1d this is possible i think.

[mishovnbg]

The_Hog, on May 26 2004, 02:48 AM, said:

Rumen - Kalin play a 15+ C opening, not the Polish C 12+. Nightmare bears no resemblance to Polish Club whatsoever. It has a weak garbage catch all NT to start with and also a 15+ C opening.

I have already mentioned Sher's system as a very worked 2/1 style.

Hi Ron!
Rumen-Kalin play Polish club, not precision, but with variable range of 1NT and 2♣ openings depend of vul. This allow natural rebids of 1♣ opening, unlike in precision.

Hi falme!
It is possible to play transfer responses incude 1♦ to polish club or nat opening, because you have natural rebids, wich determine type of opening. You can't do it with precision, because lack of possibility of such rebids. That is one of reasons why polish style of openings are best possible one for natural system.

It is possible to make some compromises and play precision with wide range of natural 1♦ opening. In such case you can play precision with transfer responses, becuse 2♦ rebid is free for GF. Example:
1♣{16+}-1♠{deny 4+M}, ?
1NT: 16-19 bal or semi bal
2♣: 16-21, 5+♣
2♦: GF, artifical
2♥/♠: 16-21, 5+♥/♠
2NT: 16-21, 5+-5+ M or m

Above scheme is possible for play, but far from perfect, unlike rebids of polish club after 1♠ response.

Misho

[Free]

In moscito 1♠ is used as a double negative (0-5), 1♦ is GF, and about all others are semi-positive. I think you can easily play trf responses after a big ♣ like:

1♦ = 4+♥ semi pos or better
1♥ = 4+♠ semi pos or better
1♠ = double negative
1NT+ = other bids which describe the hand.

problem is that with 1♠ as double negative you need to catch the semi pos hands immediatly, and seperate them from the GF hands as soon as possible. If you'd use 1♠ as single negative, you're already too high to investigate strength. Another thought might be:

1♦ = 4+♥ 0+ hcp
1♥ = 4+♠ 0+ hcp
1♠ = double negative, no 4M
1NT+ = other bids which describe the hand as semi pos or better with minors or balanced without 4 card M

Perhaps even put certain semi pos hands with minors (or balanced) inside the 1♠ response...

I had a similar idea for after a 2-way 1♣:
1♦ = neg or 6+ HCP with 4+♥
1♥ = 6+ HCP with 4+♠
1♠+ = shows bal hands and unbalanced with one or both minors
But this has to be developed some more, because there's a problem with the ♥ suit

[Flame]

Misho i see your point but this is why i said i think those trans are even better in precision, what i mean is after polish many times opener show his hand which isnt exactly taking benefit of this transfer, in precision i think more relay method should take place when only responder show his hand.
Free - the 1s double negative is possible, but maybe you can go all the way without it as done in those trs systems after polish, like nightmare millenium and kalin-rumen , in those systems 1d 1h can be 0+ and there is no negative response on the first round of bidding.

[mishovnbg]

Flame, on May 26 2004, 12:39 PM, said:

Misho i see your point but this is why i said i think those trans are even better in precision, what i mean is after polish many times opener show his hand which isnt exactly taking benefit of this transfer, in precision i think more relay method should take place when only responder show his hand.
Free - the 1s double negative is possible, but maybe you can go all the way without it as done in those trs systems after polish, like nightmare millenium and kalin-rumen , in those systems 1d 1h can be 0+ and there is no negative response on the first round of bidding.

Hi Flame!
No, those transfers include 1♦ are worse in precision, as I already explain. When you open natural, after 1♠ you bid 2nd time your distribution, as well as your range of hcp. In precision you bid 1st time your distribution as rebid and can miss any good contract, because rebids are at 2 level and not enough bidding space for safe investigation.
Misho

[hrothgar]

Free, on May 26 2004, 01:18 PM, said:

In moscito 1♠ is used as a double negative (0-5), 1♦ is GF, and about all others are semi-positive. I think you can easily play trf responses after a big ♣ like:

1♦ = 4+♥ semi pos or better
1♥ = 4+♠ semi pos or better
1♠ = double negative
1NT+ = other bids which describe the hand.

problem is that with 1♠ as double negative you need to catch the semi pos hands immediatly, and seperate them from the GF hands as soon as possible. If you'd use 1♠ as single negative, you're already too high to investigate strength. Another thought might be:

1♦ = 4+♥ 0+ hcp
1♥ = 4+♠ 0+ hcp
1♠ = double negative, no 4M
1NT+ = other bids which describe the hand as semi pos or better with minors or balanced without 4 card M

Perhaps even put certain semi pos hands with minors (or balanced) inside the 1♠ response...

I had a similar idea for after a 2-way 1♣:
1♦ = neg or 6+ HCP with 4+♥
1♥ = 6+ HCP with 4+♠
1♠+ = shows bal hands and unbalanced with one or both minors
But this has to be developed some more, because there's a problem with the ♥ suit

Please note: the following is my own opinion and NOT something that I have discussed extensively with Paul.

The essence of MOSCITO is limiting bids as quickly as possible. I don't think that you'll ever see an official variant that combines semi-positive and game forcing responses in a single bid. At one point, I was trying to develop a response scheme in which a 1D response to the strong club opening showed either a game foricng hand or a negative response. Higher responses showed semi-positive hands. The strong club opener had the choice of asking with 1H or showing with 1S+ plus. Roy Kerr and Paul took this base and developed the "new" response structure. However, note that they eliminated the 2-way 1D.

For what its worth, I dislike using a transfer response structure to show the semi-positive hands. Transfers are a great tool for an unlimited hand to describe itself to a limited hand. However, they don't add much when an unlimited hand is asking a limited hand. Note that MOSCITO uses extensive use of relays to rightside contracts, however, this is very different than "The Transfer Principle", ala Rubens.

More importantly, combining a transfer scheme with a relay structure prevents us from stopping in responding suit at the two-level. Its more important to be able to stop low with a minimum 1C opening.

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ron!
"Two way club systems like Polish Club, Svan etc very rarely use transfers to 1C, as the 1D response is required for a negative."

It is true that polish club players rare use transfers to 1♣, but it is simple mistake or unwilling to use more complicate methods. The perfect place for transfer responses is exactly PC. It include all nesesary for successful continuations after 0+ transfers: clear rebids of 1NT/2♣(no need 1♦ negative unlike precision) and right sided contracts with strong NT and GF hands. Need to say development of system with 0+ transfers is very difficulte, because new idea to keep opps out of balancing, do same with your own partner . Bocchi-Duboin and Fantoni-Nunes use this idea too.

Misho

[Flame]

Misho i understood what you said the first tome, and after richard response its even clearer that what i wanted is probebly wrong. I thought its better in precision then in polish because my idea wasnt for the 1c opener to discribe his hand, i wanted him to be the captain and only ask questions in which the exptra info of the polish club is not necesary, as im very weak with relay im pretty sure im wrong and this isnt such a good idea.

[tysen2k]

My only advice if you're trying to invent a response system w/o a negative response is make sure you are able to stop in 1NT when that's the right place to be.

I personally use 1♦ negative and a transfer positive system similar but not identical to Meckwell.

[EricK]

I haven't thought out all the details (or even many of the details!), so this might be rubbish; but ...

Could one use 1♦ as either a -ve or a ♥positive. With all other bids transfers (1♥ = 5+♠, 1♠ = balanced +ve etc).

In reply to the 1♦ bid, 1♥ shows extras, others are natural and NF, except for jumps which set trumps and are forcing.

After 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ responder somehow shows his hand type, possibly through more multi-way bids (these are the details I haven't worked out!).

Eric

[Free]

that's quite simple: 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ is negative, all others natural problem with the two-way 1♣ is that you don't necessarily have to be strong and still have to know if partner is natural or not before passing 2♥, with the strong club it's not extremely necessary. But as I mentioned above, you need to make a difference between positive and semi-positive after the 1♣, otherwise 1♠ 0-7 is too big range... So it should probably work with big ♣ systems, but not in 2-way ♣. But problems come again when opps intervene ofcourse...