[Kungsgeten]

We currently play double as penalties in the following auctions, as suggested by Michael Lawrence:

(1M)-P-(1NT)-P; (P)-Dbl = Penalties, wants dummy's suit led.

(1X)-P-(1Y)-P; (1NT)-P-(P)-Dbl = Penalties, wants dummy's suit led.

A downside of this is that we can not make delayed take-out doubles in these situations. We also play two-suited overcalls here, so we can not balance with a minor that was too weak for a direct two level overcall.

How do you play double in these situations, and do you think being able to double for penalties is worth it?

[aguahombre]

Kungsgeten, on 2016-October-13, 13:48, said:

We currently play double as penalties in the following auctions, as suggested by Michael Lawrence:

(1M)-P-(1NT)-P; (P)-Dbl = Penalties, wants dummy's suit led.

(1X)-P-(1Y)-P; (1NT)-P-(P)-Dbl = Penalties, wants dummy's suit led.

A downside of this is that we can not make delayed take-out doubles in these situations. We also play two-suited overcalls here, so we can not balance with a minor that was too weak for a direct two level overcall.

How do you play double in these situations, and do you think being able to double for penalties is worth it?

I see no downside to making a takeout double the first time -- or not at all.
I see no upside to playing two-suited overcalls in 4th chair over (1x) p (1y). That is what double and cues or 2nt are for.

Doubling for takeout on the second round with light values when the opponents have had time to show they have no fit is suicidal. balancing with a suit bid you couldn't make on the 1st round -- after the opponents have settled in notrump is equally suicidal.

Do what you should do early, or don't do it.

Mike Lawrence's suggestions often have value.

[nullve]

Why not play two-way doubles in these situations?

[ggwhiz]

nullve, on 2016-October-13, 15:43, said:

Why not play two-way doubles in these situations?

Eddie Kantar wrote a hilarious article about the time Marshall Miles talked him into playing those. Given proper disclosure they defended 1 and 2 level contracts when the opponents had 11 card fits etc.

Maybe not entirely applicable here but not playable imo.

My partnership plays these as a flawed takeout with warts. Decent hands with the wrong shape to double first time so if you have enough to leave it in, dummies bid suit is at least ok to lead and if you pull you might catch a doubleton honour in an otherwise decent hand. In your 2nd scenario it's much more likely to be 4-3 in the unbids with a good holding in the y suit and not a piece of cheese.

[gnasher]

I never seem to have a real penalty double in these auctions. I prefer to play these as something like a balanced 13- or 14-count. If partner leaves it in, I just want him to make his natural lead.

If I have Kxx Kxx AQ10x J10x,I don't want to make a takeout double of a major-suit opening, but nor do I want to do nothing.

[wank]

too weak to overcall originally = too clever to overcall later once you've found they've got a misfit and when they now have a penalty double available.

[MrAce]

ggwhiz, on 2016-October-13, 16:01, said:

Eddie Kantar wrote a hilarious article about the time Marshall Miles talked him into playing those. Given proper disclosure they defended 1 and 2 level contracts when the opponents had 11 card fits etc.

Maybe not entirely applicable here but not playable imo.

My partnership plays these as a flawed takeout with warts. Decent hands with the wrong shape to double first time so if you have enough to leave it in, dummies bid suit is at least ok to lead and if you pull you might catch a doubleton honour in an otherwise decent hand. In your 2nd scenario it's much more likely to be 4-3 in the unbids with a good holding in the y suit and not a piece of cheese.

Having partnered Marshall Miles for about 4 years, I totally understand what you and Eddie mean. You just reminded me old memories.Long team matches at Jeff Goldsmith's house in Pasadena CA and the awesome food Jeff cooked.
He was a great player who did not care about reputation or success or loss. He loved 2 things the most in his life. His wife and Bridge. He loved the game just for what it is. You would be amazed if you heard the ideas he had that he did not have the time to write, as we used to talk till the sun rise in his house in Redlands CA, I was overwhelmed by the things he paid attention in bidding. Most of them made sense but contradicted with traditional methods.
I missed him.
R.I.P. Marshall.

[Phil]

Playing penalty x's of dead NT's is a good idea.

To show a takeout hand, you have two choices:

1. Play 2C as takeout. Takeout of what? IN the case of 1m 1N, it's the minor, but 1x 1y 1N, it should be responders suit.

2. Play DONT. This gets your suits in quickly and makes awkward patterns like 4-5 easier to sort out,

[aguahombre]

There are two threads identical. The other one won't have Wank's and Phil's contributions unless a mod merges them. And this one, of course, is lacking my usual brilliant thoughts.

[diana_eva]

aguahombre, on 2016-October-14, 09:04, said:

There are two threads identical. The other one won't have Wank's and Phil's contributions unless a mod merges them. And this one, of course, is lacking my usual brilliant thoughts.

Merged