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#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:51


You play that 3NT shows a short-suit slam-try (almost certainly in a minor), and your methods now for better or worse are that 4C accepts short clubs, 4D accepts short diamonds, 4H shows wastage in bothe minors and 4NT would be RKCB. 4S would show a void. What is your choice?
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#2 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2016-December-01, 17:54

I would start by reminding myself of the agreed range for 2NT when having a short suit.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#3 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-December-01, 20:50

View Postcherdano, on 2016-December-01, 17:54, said:

I would start by reminding myself of the agreed range for 2NT when having a short suit.

We just play any game-force, too good to splinter (which would be around 8-11).
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#4 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2016-December-02, 04:30

OK. I think I am just about worth 4C. Good problem.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#5 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2016-December-02, 04:58

View Postcherdano, on 2016-December-02, 04:30, said:

OK. I think I am just about worth 4C. Good problem.

Really? Your club holding is worth nothing opposite shortage but your diamond holding rates to produce a trick 50% of the time opposite a singleton. I think I would just bid 4H but if I were to do something more encouraging it would be to bid 4D.
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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-December-02, 06:12

View Postgordontd, on 2016-December-02, 04:58, said:

Really? Your club holding is worth nothing opposite shortage but your diamond holding rates to produce a trick 50% of the time opposite a singleton. I think I would just bid 4H but if I were to do something more encouraging it would be to bid 4D.


As little as Axxx, Qxxx, AQxx, x will make slam decent, I think you need more with a stiff diamond, eg with the minors reversed you need AKxx.

Your diamond trick may well only be useful for throwing a winner on
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2016-December-02, 12:47

4. My hand isn't magically worse than x-AKJxx-Kxxx-xxx.
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#8 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-December-02, 13:04

View Postnullve, on 2016-December-02, 12:47, said:

4. My hand isn't magically worse than x-AKJxx-Kxxx-xxx.
Is that a good hand when you've already shown a singleton spade?

I am assuming a framework where the opening bid shows 13-21ish. If the pair is playing Precision, this is a good hand.
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#9 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2016-December-02, 15:14

View PostKaitlyn S, on 2016-December-02, 13:04, said:

Is that a good hand when you've already shown a singleton spade?

Clearly, the method isn't working properly if I have to bid the same way with

x AKJxx Kxxx xxx (no C wastage)

as with

x AKJxx xxxx Kxx (C wastage),

but I agree that bidding 4 with the former hand might be too encouraging if partner doesn't have Last Train (4) available.
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#10 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-December-03, 12:55

View Postnullve, on 2016-December-02, 15:14, said:

Clearly, the method isn't working properly if I have to bid the same way with

x AKJxx Kxxx xxx (no C wastage)

as with

x AKJxx xxxx Kxx (C wastage),

but I agree that bidding 4 with the former hand might be too encouraging if partner doesn't have Last Train (4) available.

Some good players I asked thought I should have bid 4C/4D because I have good trumps.Partner had AKJTx QTxx Axx x and we missed slam when I signed off in 4H.
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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-December-03, 13:38

View Postlamford, on 2016-December-03, 12:55, said:

Some good players I asked thought I should have bid 4C/4D because I have good trumps.Partner had AKJTx QTxx Axx x and we missed slam when I signed off in 4H.


We would bid this relatively easily after a 1-2 start, it's awkward when you have no idea of partner's shape in the long suits, if he has a spade less and a diamond more it's much less good.
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#12 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-December-03, 14:18

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-December-03, 13:38, said:

We would bid this relatively easily after a 1-2 start, it's awkward when you have no idea of partner's shape in the long suits, if he has a spade less and a diamond more it's much less good.

Sadly, 1H-2S in our methods was weak so that was ruled out. 1H-1S was possible of course, and there is something to be said for that route.
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#13 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2016-December-03, 17:02

View Postlamford, on 2016-December-03, 12:55, said:

Some good players I asked thought I should have bid 4C/4D because I have good trumps.Partner had AKJTx QTxx Axx x and we missed slam when I signed off in 4H.


I'm not a fan of the methods that with responder being captain after 2nt switching to crew with that 3nt bid. A simple and traditional cue bidding auction does the job and if that's not available (is it?), RKC by responder (gamble on the spade winners) seems called for unless you open real trash.

If this method is going to work I suggest that responders 3nt bid should not be this hand. Perhaps turning the K into the Q? making it the mildest of slam tries since opener is still unlimited. Having BOTH partners unlimited at this level is a bad idea.
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#14 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2016-December-04, 10:28

Most of the problems stem from the fact that both hands are still unlimited after the 3S bid.

A really simple improvement to basic Jacoby 2NT uses 3C to show an artificial minimum. If you like simplicity, you can keep the other responses exactly the same - a new suit shows shortage and a non-minimum, including 4C. If you show a minimum and responder is still interested in finding out about shortage they can bid 3D as an enquiry.

The main advantage of this method is that you avoid giving away information to the defense on hands where responder has no slam interest opposite a minimum, but it also has significant advantages in slam auctions by slowing the auction down and allowing opener to put their hand in a range.

Using this method I would respond 3S showing non-minimum and spade shortage. After stretching the first time I can now happily sign off on the next round having shown partner that I have at least a bit extra.
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#15 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-December-05, 13:31

View Postlamford, on 2016-December-03, 12:55, said:

Some good players I asked thought I should have bid 4C/4D because I have good trumps.Partner had AKJTx QTxx Axx x and we missed slam when I signed off in 4H.


I'm sure we've seen similar hands with e.g. spades and diamonds reversed where bidding the strong side suit was the heavy favourite among stronger players. At the one level it might be more fiddly to set up a subsequent game force, but this hand has so much potential power I think it can look after itself (and has more room to do so). If P rebids anything but 1N or 2 (or if the opps start bidding clubs aggressively), you can almost force to slam, and over either of those calls you can presumably set up a GF with your next bid.
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#16 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-December-05, 13:45

all shortage showing bids should be limited (or slam drive) or have space remaining for serious/non-serious.
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#17 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-December-05, 16:03

Partner's short suit has not improved my hand, has in fact, detracted from it. 4H.
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#18 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2016-December-05, 16:16

View PostWinstonm, on 2016-December-05, 16:03, said:

Partner's short suit has not improved my hand, has in fact, detracted from it. 4H.

And if you had x AKJxx Kxxx xxx you would encourage opposite club shortage since it would improve your hand?
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#19 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2016-December-05, 16:31

I don't get all the complaints about methods. Yes you can incorporate ranges at a lower level. But with the given system, both partners were able to show their shortage - which can be quite helpful on some hand.

View Postwank, on 2016-December-05, 13:45, said:

all shortage showing bids should be limited (or slam drive) or have space remaining for serious/non-serious.

Partner is reasonably limited. He has more than a direct splinter (8-11). And we can assume he doesn't have enough to drive to the 5-level himself opposite spade shortness.
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#20 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2016-December-05, 16:59

View Postcherdano, on 2016-December-05, 16:16, said:

And if you had x AKJxx Kxxx xxx you would encourage opposite club shortage since it would improve your hand?


Yes. In fact, on the given hand the heart suit is improved - but I don't think that is quite enough to encourage. Do you?
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