[euclidz]

With no partnership agreement . . . .

Partner (second seat) doubles openers preemptive 3, what do you expect he is holding?

Is such a double 'generally' accepted to be a penalty double or a take-out double?

[Stephen Tu]

Takeout. I think penalty doublers at 3 level should have been extinct for a long time by now. More interesting is double of 4h/4s, there are probably a handful of penalty doublers left.

[wank]

It's takeout

[The_Badger]

It is more than generally accepted as takeout: it is takeout. Except on the very, very rare occasion where you have a good holding in opener's suit and little else (and that happens once in a blue moon).

[smerriman]

 The_Badger, on 2017-July-04, 15:09, said:

Except on the very, very rare occasion where you have a good holding in opener's suit and little else (and that happens once in a blue moon).

Just to be clear, even in that case, the double was still for takeout

[steve2005]

 smerriman, on 2017-July-04, 18:58, said:

Just to be clear, even in that case, the double was still for takeout

I once opened 3H with Kxxxxx, 2H unavailable.
LHO opponent after long think and muttering doubled with AQJT9xx. I guess that is how you do a penalty double. Didn't work.

[GrahamJson]

 steve2005, on 2017-July-05, 03:51, said:

I once opened 3H with Kxxxxx, 2H unavailable.
LHO opponent after long think and muttering doubled with AQJT9xx. I guess that is how you do a penalty double. Didn't work.

Didn't he close his hand, put them face down in front of him and write 3HX on his score card? That's the usual was of making a penalty double in this position.

[msjennifer]

A mandatory wait of 10 seconds was the rule for the pre-emptors LHO who could then double or bid anything else.I do not know if the rule still exists.Director can then take appropriate action whenever he is called and the hesitations or closing the carts etc are explained to him .I think at least nine out of ten treat a double of 3 level preempt as a take out double.

[fourdad]

"with no agreement"

sigh...

[GrahamJson]

 msjennifer, on 2017-July-06, 01:12, said:

A mandatory wait of 10 seconds was the rule for the pre-emptors LHO who could then double or bid anything else.I do not know if the rule still exists.Director can then take appropriate action whenever he is called and the hesitations or closing the carts etc are explained to him .I think at least nine out of ten treat a double of 3 level preempt as a take out double.

In the U.K. It is necessary to show a Stop card before any jump bid, requiring a pause of at least ten seconds before next hand calls. And next hand is required to at least pretend to think, although that can perhaps be waived if it is a second round jump in a non competitive auction, e.g. 1S-1NT-3NT.

[Kaitlyn S]

 fourdad, on 2017-July-06, 04:08, said:

"with no agreement"

sigh...

Many enjoy using BBO's "Help Me Find A Game" feature to play here. How many of those do you think have discussed the meaning of a double of 3H?

I don't discuss it because I don't think I have to; I presume everyone plays takeout. (Admittedly, I'm guessing over 4H or 4S but it happens seldom enough that I think there are more important agreements to discuss in 30 seconds.)

But this is BBO and "without agreement" might very well be normal in those rooms.

In fact, I have played in several competitive team matches on BBO and have never once discussed that auction with a first-time partner.

[RD350LC]

 The_Badger, on 2017-July-04, 15:09, said:

It is more than generally accepted as takeout: it is takeout. Except on the very, very rare occasion where you have a good holding in opener's suit and little else (and that happens once in a blue moon).

My view is that with that kind of hand, I would pass, and take my 50cents per trick. It is much preferred to use a double for takeout.

[GrahamJson]

 RD350LC, on 2017-July-06, 09:28, said:

My view is that with that kind of hand, I would pass, and take my 50cents per trick. It is much preferred to use a double for takeout.

Indeed. The point is it is either penalty or take out, the latter being the norm. It cannot be both, depending on what hand you happen to hold at the time.

Having said that I have seen many times on BBO players doubling after a long pause when they hold AKJx in trumps but doubling quickly with x and four cards in the unbidden suits.

[Kaitlyn S]

This thread has given me an idea for a future "Bidding Problems for I/N players"

[johnu]

 GrahamJson, on 2017-July-05, 04:39, said:

Didn't he close his hand, put them face down in front of him and write 3HX on his score card? That's the usual was of making a penalty double in this position.

In the "old" days, you bid a thunderous double, and then asked, "My lead?" With bidding boxes, you take all the doubles out of the box and fan them on the table.

[mycroft]

Standing on the chair has gone out of fashion?

[Kaitlyn S]

 mycroft, on 2017-July-07, 07:43, said:

Standing on the chair has gone out of fashion?

Many of the people that used that method have aged to the point where this is physically difficult.

[nige1]

Over pre-empts from 2♦ to 4♥, most modern players double for take-out. Fewer values are needed for balancing -- in the protective position. Nowadays, over 4♠, double is usually action -- high-cards -- not a trump stack -- but often left in for penalties.

In the past, players played a competitive or optional double over pre-empts (Take-out with something in opponent's suit).

Before that, double was usually penalty. For take-out, players used Fishbein (artificial bid of the cheapest suit), better minor, cheaper minor, or an artificial 3N.

[sfi]

 johnu, on 2017-July-06, 12:15, said:

In the "old" days, you bid a thunderous double, and then asked, "My lead?" With bidding boxes, you take all the doubles out of the box and fan them on the table.

A partner many years ago had the subconscious habit of saying "Huh? Double." when the opponents were in real trouble. To his credit, he was embarrassed when someone pointed out what he was doing.