[UdcaDenny]

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My p blamed me for being too weak but we could avoid going to slam if he cuebid 4D. Then I would deny H control and bid 4S. He could also reduble to show first control in C and after my 4D bid 4S which I would pass without H control. We play 2/1 and isnt it enough to reach game after a splinter or is it a slamtry ?

[Cyberyeti]

Depends on your other methods, but for me not a splinter but close.

If 2N is still a goodish raise, the splinter is in the "values maybe a bit shaded for a raise to 3" territory, you have this amply offensively but not the high cards on defence.

I would just bid 4♠ here, E is hard pressed not to go for a bazillion in 5♣ if he hasn't seen mouldy overcalls like this from his partner before (after all he only needs xxx, Kx, KJx, KQxxx to make this).

[gordontd]

UdcaDenny, on 2018-March-25, 08:32, said:

My p blamed me for being too weak but we could avoid going to slam if he cuebid 4D. Then I would deny H control and bid 4S. He could also reduble to show first control in C and after my 4D bid 4S which I would pass without H control. We play 2/1 and isnt it enough to reach game after a splinter or is it a slamtry ?

You can't avoid getting to game after you make a splinter bid, so clearly it's a slam-try.

[Cyberyeti]

gordontd, on 2018-March-25, 09:38, said:

You can't avoid getting to game after you make a splinter bid, so clearly it's a slam-try.

Not necessarily, quite a few people play mini splinters here to allow partner to make a good decision over 5♣.

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-March-25, 12:46, said:

Not necessarily, quite a few people play mini splinters here to allow partner to make a good decision over 5♣.

So they overbid by one level to help partner decide what to do if the opponents follow your lead?

[FelicityR]

An extra trump (or two) does not compensate for lack of honour cards. The North hand is always ruffing losing clubs whether there are 4 or 6 trumps in the hand. And above the four level, I have been told, the Law of Total Tricks is not applicable. I'd bid 4♠ as North.

[pescetom]

UdcaDenny, on 2018-March-25, 08:32, said:

My p blamed me for being too weak but we could avoid going to slam if he cuebid 4D. Then I would deny H control and bid 4S. He could also reduble to show first control in C and after my 4D bid 4S which I would pass without H control. We play 2/1 and isnt it enough to reach game after a splinter or is it a slamtry ?

I'm with you all the way and authorise you to tell p so
Splinters in a 2/1 system with fast arrival are all about hands that are just strong enough to risk game.
That way you give a clear message about strength as well as distribution, and have a good reason to pre-empt.
In this case p should realise that there is no chance of slam, and if he really does want to check he should control-bid 4♦ as you say.

[steve2005]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-March-25, 12:46, said:

Not necessarily, quite a few people play mini splinters here to allow partner to make a good decision over 5♣.

Mini-splinter over an overcall? 3♣ just forces it doesn't have to be a splinter.

[croquetfan]

The answer is staring at you. Part has almost the best hand you could expect and you still struggle to even make game. It's a long way from a slam try!

[UdcaDenny]

If there was no interference I would bid 1NT and then jump to 4S as a direct 4S denies an outside K or A. Isnt it obvious that P should be concerned about my H-holding and the best way to find out is cuebidding. Why assume I have a stopper in H. Thats wishful thinking.

[0deary]

By bidding 4C N/S agreed a Spade fit and Club control. The difference is Norths strength/playing tricks: was it enough to suggest slam or was it just enough to compete? Which is more efficient? Let’s assume North/South use the latter (mere fit and C control but no certainty of extras)

If E/W go to 5C then South should be in a good position to make a decision. South could easily visualise E/W has a Spade void, plenty of Club trumps so any defensive tricks would have to be in the reds. The trouble is South is only looking at very slow tricks there. So South would not be able to X. Which would miss the 800 on offer! Pity South couldn’t rely on some strength too. The 4C that was supposed to help a decision on competing is actually a mirage

What about slamming? North and East just switched their red aces, and assumed S did redouble (and not rush unilaterally to the sky), would N bid 4H? I don’t know either! If I just bid 4S it would be my fault if S really did have slam. But if I bid 4H then we could one of those hopeless slams: top control rich but missing playing tricks. The trouble is North can’t distinguish between two different hands, hence N shouldn’t start the conversation

For those reasons I think it’s better to show decent extras too: on the hand illustrated it’s too weak to splinter

PS If North and East’s whole hands were switched then after 2C by West, vulnerable and under an unlimited North, I’d hope for S to reopen with a double which N can pass again for the ~800 on offer...but as it is...West was lucky, that time

[ahydra]

The North hand is a 4S pre-emptive raise, not a splinter bid. Sometimes there is such a thing as "too many trumps" - they're not always worth extra tricks, unlike raw high cards in side suits. If you replaced a low spade with say the ♥K then that would meet the criteria for a splinter bid.

Your comments about partner not cuebidding with two losers in a side suit are of course correct though.

ahydra

[helene_t]

UdcaDenny, on 2018-March-26, 00:20, said:

If there was no interference I would bid 1NT and then jump to 4S as a direct 4S denies an outside K or A.

I don't think that's a good idea. It will show a 3-card limit raise that reevaluates to a gf after hearing partner's second bid. You may argue that this hand has similar playing strength but partner will expect more HCPs and may sometimes make the wrong slam decision.

Also, when you have a known 11-card fit, opps are likely to interfere and you want to show your fit so partner can participate in the the decision about whether to compete to the 5-level and whether to defend doubled or undoubled.

If you don't have a more descriptive bid, bid 3♠ at your first turn.

Quote

Why assume I have a stopper in H.

Because you have shown some points. If you don't have a heart control at least you will have ♠A and the 5-level is likely to be safe.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

in a competitive auction a splinter bid is not always used to start investigating slam,
it is also used to help in decision process of going 4 over 5 / 5 over 5.
A common combination: we have hearts, they have spades, or we are red they are green.
Obviously having spades, and being green vs. red, it is not obviouse, that our partnership
will face a decision go to the 5 level or not, and in the given auction the splinter did help
the opponents discovering their brilliant fit.

And the splinter should be a warning, that club values are not needed, South has a nice hand,
but 33% of the values are in their suit, and the finesse will not be on, unless, you assume
West made the overcall with Jxxxx?, so the hand is best at mediocrite, no need to sign of, but
also not strong enough to force to slam vs the right number of key cards.
Give North the Queen of diamonds, and North has a splinter bid, but you are still off 3 cashing
tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[nekthen]

Was this a regular partner or a bbo random?
A regular partner needs to know that with a stronger hand with spade support you would bid 3♣ or 4♣ eg another K and Q would be a minimum
Many bbo randoms will bid game with strong hands with or without interference because they do not know how to play or they do not trust their random p to recognise a GF bid

[GrahamJson]

For me, the north hand is clearly well below strength for a splinter, as the outcome indicates. Also, I don’t see how it can be read as anything other than a slam try; if you are just showing shape in a competitive situation it’s helping oppo more than partner. In addition, if oppo go to 5C over 4S it shouldn’t be too difficult for partner to deduce that you are probably short in clubs.

[msjennifer]

The North hand is just not good enough for a splinter bid.The right bid is 4S. The way a splinter bid is made as we and many others play it is the inability to cue bid with a hand not strong enough defensively.The splinter bid should always promise at least a second round control in the two remaining suits.However ,I feel that South with its 7losers can not even smell a slam.The N hand too has 8 Losers (unfit for a splinter which says a game opposite 7 losers.)

[msjennifer]

msjennifer, on 2018-March-26, 08:37, said:

The North hand is just not good enough for a splinter bid.The right bid is 4S. The way a splinter bid is made as we and many others play it is the inability to cue bid with a hand not strong enough defensively.The splinter bid should always promise at least a second round control in the two remaining suits.However ,I feel that South with its almost 7losers can not even smell a slam.The N hand too has 8 Losers (unfit for a splinter which says a game opposite 7 losers.)

[Joe_Old]

GrahamJson, on 2018-March-26, 05:29, said:

For me, the north hand is clearly well below strength for a splinter, as the outcome indicates. Also, I don’t see how it can be read as anything other than a slam try; if you are just showing shape in a competitive situation it’s helping oppo more than partner. In addition, if oppo go to 5C over 4S it shouldn’t be too difficult for partner to deduce that you are probably short in clubs.

Absolutely right.

No bid other than 4♠ would ever occur to me.

Splinters were created to find slams opposite a shapely 14 count or a grand opposite a shapely 18. Originally they were intended to set trump, force game and invite slam, meaning that game was all but guaranteed opposite a 4432 12 count. I realize that the rules have been relaxed, but not this far.

Looking at it a different way, a jump to 4♠ is supposed to give opener, on average, some play to make game. It also says that on defense responder has one qt or less, and that there is no guarantee ♠ are cashing. That's all North's hand can offer.

[RD350LC]

UdcaDenny, on 2018-March-25, 08:32, said:

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My p blamed me for being too weak but we could avoid going to slam if he cuebid 4D. Then I would deny H control and bid 4S. He could also reduble to show first control in C and after my 4D bid 4S which I would pass without H control. We play 2/1 and isnt it enough to reach game after a splinter or is it a slamtry ?

I would not splinter with that hand. You do have 6 card support, and a singleton, but I consider this too weak to splinter. I consider a fit showing slam try.
With that hand, I would simply bid 4 ♠, as a standard weak jump to game.