[Gunnar60]

Which bridge program is the best:

Argine (FunBridge)
GIB (BBO)

I think both are rather good, but which is the best?

/Bjorn

[etha]

both are so bad they don't even compete in the world computer bridge championships

[Gunnar60]

I have seen this explanation why Argine is not competing:

As I understand, entrants to the World Computer-bridge Championship install their software on “regulation” machines at the playing site (that of the given year's World [human] Bridge Championships).
A skim of the Funbridge website seems to indicate that it's available only at a server.

Have you tried challenges against Argine, not so easy to play against.

[etha]

I can run a 16 board match between it and a decent program if they have some facility for uploading hands and playing them and I'll let you know the result.

[pescetom]

etha, on 2019-May-03, 04:44, said:

both are so bad they don't even compete in the world computer bridge championships

That is clear but probably not the point - we don't really need a world computer bridge champion to play with on-line.
For BBO-like purposes, Argine is almost acceptable whereas GIB is not.
In everything except slam bidding it is better than the average human.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2019-May-03, 08:55, said:

That is clear but probably not the point - we don't really need a world computer bridge champion to play with on-line.
For BBO-like purposes, Argine is almost acceptable whereas GIB is not.
In everything except slam bidding it is better than the average human.

I don't know about "average human", but GIB does pretty well competing against BBO players. We've had it play the hands in daylong tournaments, and it averages in the high 50's.

[Gunnar60]

The first guy's comment is not according to reality. I have received an answer from Jerome Rombaut with deep knowledge of Argine development:

No not true
Argine could play WC
We put Argine in once but it’s not the same goal : Argine is programmed to play with million of different partners
Others computers are programmed to win the championship that’s mean overcall and preempt all the time!

Another view is that Argine is based on Wbridge5, comment from Jerome:

In the past Argine was build on Wbridge5 but it was a nightmare for our client so we change it. Now Argine is based on MBA

/Bjorn

[johnu]

etha, on 2019-May-03, 04:44, said:

both are so bad they don't even compete in the world computer bridge championships

Based on software reviews, I'm guessing that if they entered the tournament, they wouldn't be the worst programs in the field. I'm not saying they would be close the best, maybe middle or lower middle of the pack if I had to guess. There is no minimum level of bridge competency to enter.

That being said, it's very expensive to compete in the computer championships. Competitors have to physically travel (probably on an international flight) to the site, and pay for several days of hotels and meals during the tournament.

Most companies enter their programs for bragging rights. If they win or do well, they can include those results in advertising and hopefully increase sales. At the worst, they get a better idea how well their product performs compared to the competition.

In GIB's case, BBO still has an old version available for sale, but why would anybody buy a 20 year old program? They still make patches, but the main purpose of GIB (and Argine) these days is for online robot play. It really doesn't matter if GIB (or Argine) is any good or not. If you want to play online and compare scores against other players, you don't have a choice.

[etha]

well you can play with wbridge5 on their site in exactly the same way. Personally I hate pretty much all wbridge's systems and methods so much I don't bother.

I joined funbridge and so far can see no way to run a match but I'll have a look when I get more time. At least they seem to be actively trying to improve their engine.

[Gunnar60]

According to Jerome Rombaut Argine was built on Wbridge in the beginning but it became a nigthmare tu update and was rewritten from scratch. Maybe the bidding system are similar, but the Argine Engine are Funbridge own.
Try a challenge Against Argine, she is not easy to play against.

[Gunnar60]

Someone add a good point here regarding the strength of GIB and sinmilar engines. The most important is that the strength is so good that the average and above feel that they get competition enough, It would be nice if the development comes so famr that even Word Class player have problem with it. There is not so many WC player so it would not have no commercial impact. But of course when that day come it would be big news and bridge willget free advertise. It should be possible to set the whished strength, it is no fun to play against an engine that always win, but of course it's a good training to improve you play.

[etha]

Ok I played a few hands. The standard of the humans is laughable so all the comparison hands are fairly pointless. The ai partner was ok and there is even some ability to pick your methods. The opponent ai only let me make one unmakeable game no one bid or made and dbled a cold slam no one had bid or made. It plays the same insane stayman as wbridge in that 1nt 2♣ 2nt shows both majors. I can see no way to remove this conventional response that no one plays. I could not report this to them because you can only report misbids via the reporting system which otherwise looks ok. So it is probably better than gib but there is no way to test this.


Hah I think I found a way to switch off the 2nt response to stayman maybe this is the best online multi player robot after all. Still no idea how strong it is though i'll try to fake some matches where just one of the players is another robot. I may be able to do this and maybe gives some indication of strength. Robots generally are really really bad at playing with other robots that aren't themselves.


I seem to have found a new insane method I can't remove though. 1!c (1!d) dbl = exactly 4 hearts. If you disable this it turns off all negative dbls. Again no way to report this.

[etha]

I will try setting up a challenge on BBO with me, qplus, jack and wbridge. Then I can do the same on argine I think. This will compare gib to argine.

[etha]

Ahh on bbo I can only have a challenge between two things not all 4 at once so i'll just run qplus vs gib.

[etha]

Board 1.

Kt954
qjt8
j2
k4.

p-(1nt)- ?

You are forced by gib to play capp. no alternative. Qplus thinks 2♦ is 1.3 imps better than pass. GIB thinks this shows 5-5 so we'll see if that causes a problem.


2♦ (2nt) (3c) (3nt)

[etha]

board 3.
kq64
akt4
t632
4

favourable.
1♦ p p dbl (2♣) (2♥) (4♥)


do we dbl? qplus thinks it will gain 3.1 imps so he dbls.


Gib of course in insane and bids 4spades.


Lucky we had some spades I guess. Amusingly it only went one off and 4!h dbled might make.

[etha]

hand 4.
aq
kqt94
a63
kj5

qplus thinks 2nt is 0.5 imp better than 1♥. So I'll make that bid.

[etha]

hand 5.
p (1♦)


unfavourable.

qt975
6
kq42
k42 is this worth 1♠? qplus thinks bidding is 0.1 imps worse than pass so pass.

p (1h) (1nt) and qplus bids 2!s quite surprisingly. dbl p p p

[etha]

hand 6.
akq862
at84
j9
2


p-?


favourable. qplus thinks 0.2 imps better to bid 4♠ than 1♠.

[etha]

hand 7.

all

7
8652
kjt86
ak8

Is this an opening bid ? qplus thinks yes by 0.2 imps