[pescetom]

Zelandakh, on 2019-August-21, 07:32, said:

In this case the SSA is useful as it can distinguish between ♣xx, ♣Qx, ♣x and ♣Kx. In the first case you can pass 6♦; in the second sign off in 6NT; and the other two allow the grand to be bid with confidence.

If you do not have the SSA in your arsenal then you cannot bid seven just because you can see both hands!

I don't see that you need SSA to identify the latter two combinations of clubs, though. The Italian-style control-bid sequence I posted nails North with ♠Kxxx ♥Ax(x) ♦KQxx(x) and either ♣Kx or ♣x, which seemed enough to me at the time to call the grand with some certainty.

[TomSawyer4]

TylerE, on 2019-August-19, 20:09, said:

Enjoy going down when opener actually has xxxx AJx KQxxx K or QJxx AJx KQxxx x or any of a dozen other hands.

There is a reason no one under the age of 130 plays Goren.

xxxx AJx KQxxx K is not an opening hand, and therefore not an issue.

QJxx AJx KQxxx x is distinguished by the normal procedure of asking for Kings before a grand slam, which I skipped.

That leaves: xxxx AJ KQxxx Kx, which cannot be made, and is also not distinguished by any of the 2/1 methods I've seen presented in this forum.

AND, At the risk of starting a new forum discussion, I would argue that Goren is as full and complete as any modern system. It merely requires a little more card sense to play well.

[nullve]

2/1 fantasy:

---

Opener would bid the same way with ♣Kxx, of course, so 7♦ still not bid with certainty.

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2019-August-21, 11:53, said:

2/1 fantasy:

---

Opener would bid the same way with ♣Kxx, of course, so 7♦ still not bid with certainty.

Depends what the rest of his shape is, 4153 is still fine of course

[Cyberyeti]

TomSawyer4, on 2019-August-21, 11:33, said:

xxxx AJx KQxxx K is not an opening hand, and therefore not an issue.

That is an opening bid to 99.999% of the population, it's an opening bid to me without ♣K, but I'm fairly extreme, NOBODY passes 13 counts these days whatever they are

[Cthulhu D]

I think it's a lot easier because we play an unbalanced diamond and otherwise have a similar auction, but it's tricky because you've got lots of choices depending on how north evaluates his hand (Does he have extras? Does he say the spade suit is 'good' or focus on the club shortness?). I legimtimately think this is a 'minimum' because the unbalanced 1D obviously promises a stiff or a void so my unbalanced 13 count is pretty close to a minimum.

If he has a minimum, he goes

1D-2S (Unbalanced Diamond - Inv+diamond raise or balanced GF with exactly 4 diamonds))
2NT - 3C (I have a minimum - shortness ask)
3NT - ?? (Short clubs - and now you're home free though our RKCB uses more space than Cyberyeti's so I think there is going to be a bunch of cue bidding before RKCB is bid.

But you're screwed if partner thinks he has extras and a the 4 card spade suit is good. Like say the J of S is in north hand for the sake of argument, then it goes

1D-2S
2NT-3S (Invitational+ - Extras with a 4 card good spade suit!) Now you get stuck where cyberyeti did.

I don't agree we have extras though. If you had the Q of spades with the K you have extras though but then I think you are OK even if you have the extra club?

[rhm]

---

2♦ : inverted
2♠ : singleton club (over inverted we play step 1 (balanced or semi-balancd) next three steps show shortage from low side suit to high side suit
4♦ : Minorwood
5♣ : 2 keycards plus queen of diamonds

Simple and effective. (North is likely to hold 5 or more diamonds unless precisely 4-4-4-1)

Rainer Herrmann

[HardVector]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-21, 12:33, said:

That is an opening bid to 99.999% of the population, it's an opening bid to me without ♣K, but I'm fairly extreme, NOBODY passes 13 counts these days whatever they are

I recently passed this: AQJ6♠ QJ♥ Q54♦ JT93♣ in second seat. The hand in question is nowhere near this bad, however, and is a clear open.

[rhm]

TylerE, on 2019-August-19, 20:09, said:

Enjoy going down when opener actually has xxxx AJx KQxxx K or QJxx AJx KQxxx x or any of a dozen other hands.

There is a reason no one under the age of 130 plays Goren.

Why are these hands a problem?
I would want to be in 7♦ on any day of the week.
The spade loser disappears on the heart ace.
There are at least 5 side suit top tricks plus 8 trump tricks.

Rainer Herrmann

[mikeh]

rhm, on 2019-August-27, 09:19, said:

---

2♦ : inverted
2♠ : singleton club (over inverted we play step 1 (balanced or semi-balancd) next three steps show shortage from low side suit to high side suit
4♦ : Minorwood
5♣ : 2 keycards plus queen of diamonds

Simple and effective. (North is likely to hold 5 or more diamonds unless precisely 4-4-4-1)

Rainer Herrmann

Is 2D gf? If not, seems to me that it may be more effective to have opener, at his first turn indicate whether he would accept a limit raise. That’s what we do (see my post early in the thread). There’s lots of room thereafter to show shape...indeed, both players can show shortness, depending on opener’s first rebid.

If 2D is gf, then your scheme seems very logical.

[rhm]

♦

mikeh, on 2019-August-27, 20:45, said:

Is 2D gf? If not, seems to me that it may be more effective to have opener, at his first turn indicate whether he would accept a limit raise. That’s what we do (see my post early in the thread). There’s lots of room thereafter to show shape...indeed, both players can show shortness, depending on opener’s first rebid.

If 2D is gf, then your scheme seems very logical.

Inverted minor suit raises are not limited in the first place, so accepting or declining a limit raise is not as straightforward over a minor than a major.
I do this indirectly, but I do not see why opener needs to do this on his first rebid. Postponing the decision may give you more information before you decide what your hand is worth.
After 1♦-2♦ the only partial we can stop in is 3♦.
Anyone of the partnership, who bids 3♦, suggests this as a resting place and by inference shows a minimum hand or a hand having got worse given the auction so far.
If you bid something else, the auction either becomes game forcing or if below 3♦ remains forcing, suggesting game (or more).
1♦-2♦-3♦ shows total balanced crap by opener, so 1♦-2♦-2♥ (balanced or semi-balanced) could be a minimum hand but not total crap. Opener is likely to be 12-14 or 18-19.

Generally after a fit is found I consider showing distribution and whether we have duplication of values or not more important than anything else.

Rainer Herrmann

[TomSawyer4]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-21, 12:33, said:

That is an opening bid to 99.999% of the population, it's an opening bid to me without ♣K, but I'm fairly extreme, NOBODY passes 13 counts these days whatever they are

repeating the hand at issue: xxxx AJx KQxxx K

The issue at hand is Goren. Goren did not give full credit for singleton kings.

Nobody? I'm proud to be part of the 00.001%, and I would not normally open this hand in any position.

[chasetb]

TomSawyer4, on 2019-August-28, 20:24, said:

repeating the hand at issue: xxxx AJx KQxxx K

The issue at hand is Goren. Goren did not give full credit for singleton kings.

Nobody? I'm proud to be part of the 00.001%, and I would not normally open this hand in any position.

So you are proud that you don't know Goren? I am a systems geek, and I can assure you 100% that he opens that hand.
This is taken from pages 9 and 10 of his book Point Count Bidding in Contract Bridge ©1949, 1950, 1954, 1958.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ace = 4 / King = 3 / Queen = 2 / Jack = 1 --> K, Q(x), and J(x) should be discounted a point.

Add 3 points for a void, 2 points for each singleton, and 1 point for each doubleton.

13 points is optional for opening, but if you do, have a good rebid and at least 2 Quick Tricks. If your hand contains 14 points it must be opened!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now count your points. I count 13 HCP + 1 point for K (2-1) = 14 points!!!

I would also bet money that Roth-Stone opens this hand in any seat because of how easy the bidding is, and they were arguably the most conservative of the top pairs of the 50's and 60's.

[TomSawyer4]

chasetb, on 2019-August-28, 21:26, said:

So you are proud that you don't know Goren? I am a systems geek, and I can assure you 100% that he opens that hand.
This is taken from pages 9 and 10 of his book Point Count Bidding in Contract Bridge ©1949, 1950, 1954, 1958.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ace = 4 / King = 3 / Queen = 2 / Jack = 1 --> K, Q(x), and J(x) should be discounted a point.

Add 3 points for a void, 2 points for each singleton, and 1 point for each doubleton.

13 points is optional for opening, but if you do, have a good rebid and at least 2 Quick Tricks. If your hand contains 14 points it must be opened!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now count your points. I count 13 HCP + 1 point for K (2-1) = 14 points!!!

I would also bet money that Roth-Stone opens this hand in any seat because of how easy the bidding is, and they were arguably the most conservative of the top pairs of the 50's and 60's.

First of all, we're way off topic. You are correct that I have not played Goren since about 1975,

By the method you quote the hand adds to 12; Goren required 13. You are scoring double
for the king and the singleton. I don't remember anyone who would have waited for 14.

And, I said that I wouldn't open it. I didn't want to talk about this. By the (modified for simplicity) K-S count method I use, the hand is worth 10.75 exactly. Since K-S point count is known to be slightly conservative, I would review a 10.75 hand for redeeming features, for example a five card major and late position.
I don't have to consider whether the presence of a T9 in either of the longer suits matters (see Hardy: Standard Bridge Bidding for the Twenty-First Century, 2000, pp. 11-12) because ten nine combinations are already taken into account.
In this case, the hand is worth 10.75, and there are no redeeming features. I would pass from all positions.

I will say nothing further on the topic.

[chasetb]

Snipped just the part I want to respond to.

TomSawyer4, on 2019-September-03, 04:50, said:

By the method you quote the hand adds to 12; Goren required 13. You are scoring double
for the king and the singleton. I don't remember anyone who would have waited for 14.

In the book I quoted, Goren specifically counts extra points for short suits, mostly separate from the HCP count (with the exception I noted of K, Q(x), and J(x) losing a point). With the original hand, you have 13 HCP, and you get one d.p. (2 points - 1 point for the singleton King) for a total of 14 points. The very first hand in the book I mentioned is ♠ AJxxx ♥ KQx ♦ Jxxx ♣ K -> surprisingly similar to the hand in the first post.

I respect that you have an opinion and won't respond to more posts in this thread, but I wanted to show that the math is correct. I also do believe that not opening that hand will put you at a large disadvantage against almost any group of bridge players. Have a good day.

[MinorKid]

1♦ 2♦ ; 2d inverted minor
4♣ 4NT ; 4c splinter 4n RKCB
5♠ 7♦ ; 5s 2+Q 7d spade loser be discarded and club losers ruffed