[awm]

 nullve, on 2019-October-05, 14:46, said:

I see some problems with it, but then I may not fully understand it.

Anyway, how would you bid the following hands

1) W: Axxxx QTxx Kxx x, E: x Axx QJxxx Axxx
2) W: Axxxx QTx Kxxx x, E: x Axxxx QJx AJxx
3) W: AQxxx KQTx Kxx x, E: xx Axxx QJx Jxxx

using Relays with Double-Barreled Invites?

My guess, based on what I've read:

1) 1♠-1N; 2♥-2N; P
2) 1♠-2♣; 2♥-2N; P
3) 1♠-P

1) is a likely auction at IMPs but passing 2♥ is tempting at MP.
2) is wrong; the relay break showed five hearts so opener will always remove 2nt to 3♥. Responder pretty much knows opener’s shape and strength and can do what he likes (probably pass).
3) is actually in our range for a 1nt response but if you remove a jack from responder then 1♠-pass is right.

[nullve]

 awm, on 2019-October-05, 17:48, said:

2) is wrong; the relay break showed five hearts

Then how do you invite with 2-S4H3-D5-C after 1♠-2♣; 2♥?

 awm, on 2019-October-05, 17:48, said:

3) is actually in our range for a 1nt response but if you remove a jack from responder then 1♠-pass is right.

Ok. My guess here was based on

 awm, on 2016-November-13, 14:14, said:

Our general style of major suit openings is that we play five-card majors; we generally open on the rule of 18 (so many 5-4 9-counts open) although we'll pass minimums where points are not in the suits. Hands with 16+ points open a strong club. We open many hands with a seven-card major at the four-level. Hands at the bottom end of our opening range with a 6-card major and NOT holding four cards in the other major will normally open a weak two (so 1M with a six-card suit generally has 11-15 high). We'll typically pass with balanced hands with doubleton in partner's major and less than around 9 points.

1♠ - 1NT = semi-forcing, up to a bad 12 points. Will not have three-card support for spades.
... Mostly natural rebids; if responder bids 2♠ next it shows 9-bad 12 (so we can stop there on a bad invite). 2NT rebid is 11-bad 12.

[straube]

 nullve, on 2019-October-06, 03:13, said:

Then how do you invite with 2-S4H3-D5-C after 1♠-2♣; 2♥?

You don't start 2C with that pattern and an invite. Only 5+ OM breaks relay to invite. You start 1S-2D if you have 2452 and a good 12 to bad 14.

 nullve, on 2019-October-06, 03:13, said:

Ok. My guess here was based on

The following post came later in the original thread. It included a few changes and was more detailed.

 awm, on 2017-October-26, 15:37, said:

It is kinda symmetric:

1♥ - 1NT = 5+♠ good invite, or any GF
1♥ - 2♣ = good invite, less than five spades (or min GF with 3+♥)
... 2♦ = not four spades, if max excludes some hands
... 2♥ = min, four spades
... 2♠ = max, four spades
... 2N = max 6+♥
... 3m = max 5/5 or better
... 3♥ = short spades max

1♥-1♠ = at most a bad invite, forcing one round, any number of spades, 0-2♥
... 1NT = 3-4♠
... 2m = NAT, 0-2♠
... 2♥ = NAT, 11-15
... 2♠ = some 6m
... 2N = 5♠/6♥

1♥-1♠-1NT
... Pass = 3145 or similar, less than INV
... 2♣ = check-back, 4+♠, normally at least constructive
... 2♦ = 3154 or similar
... 2♥ = 8-12, not four spades, two hearts
... 2♠ = to play
... 2NT = 11-bad 12, normally 3145

1♥-1♠-1NT-2♣
... 2♦ = 5♥-3♠ (can bid on over 2M if 14-15 hcp)
... 2♥ = 6♥-3♠, less than 14-15 hcp
... 2♠ = 4♠, less than 14-15 hcp
... 2NT = 14-15 hcp 4♠ and a void
... 3m = 14-15 hcp 4♠ singleton showing
... 3♥ = 3♠-6♥ 14-15 hcp
... 3♠ = 4522 14-15 hcp

[straube]

Any agreements on getting to the other major?

I'm thinking 1S-2C, 2H-3S would be 3S/5H invitational

1H-1S, 2m-3H could be lightly invitational with 5S if you inferred or defined it that way.

Probably no lightly invitational way to support spades since 1N is not forcing

I would guess that you don't try to find the OM after a 2M-1 start. Likely, too, not to look for OM 4/4 fits which might not even play as well as 5M/3M. It's the 5/4s and the 6/3s in the OM that are more interesting to me.

[DinDIP]

nullve said:

Then how do you invite with 2-S4H3-D5-C after 1♠-2♣; 2♥?

 straube, on 2019-October-06, 07:32, said:

You don't start 2C with that pattern and an invite. Only 5+ OM breaks relay to invite. You start 1S-2D if you have 2452 and a good 12 to bad 14.

redgrover and I have been practising a version of IMPrecision which combines straube's 1C-1D structure with awm's and sieong's ideas. One problem we have encountered is how to find heart fits after a 1♠ opening when responder has a good INV with 3-5 hearts. Following the awm's original outline of the double-barrelled idea, we have been playing 1♠-2♣ as GF or a good INV with 4+H. This works fine when opener has four or more hearts, but we struggled to define which relay breaks show five hearts and which four (and which are ambiguous). Earlier in this thread awm said, in response to nullve's question, that 1♠-2♣; 2♥-2N; P "the relay break showed five hearts so opener will always remove 2nt to 3♥ [with Axxxx QTx Kxxx x]."

straube suggests that the good INVs with four hearts start with 2♦ but that leaves no efficient way to find our heart fit unless opener chooses to bid over a 2♠ or 2NT rebid. That approach is probably not too bad as we're mostly playing the wrong partscore instead of missing game (although those 5 and 6 IMP swings do add up), but what about when opener has a hand too weak to accept the INV with five hearts. Now we're missing a 5-3 or, even worse, a 5-4 fit, where game is a real issue. 10 and 12 IMP swings add up even more quickly. What to do?

[straube]

I'm playing Adam's method. Do you have the right continuations?

1S-2C, ?-relay break = GI 5 hearts

1S-2D,
.....2H-denies 4 hearts, various hands
.....2S-5S/4H, minimum
.....2N-5S/4H, max

So GI 5H starts 2C but GI 4H starts 2D.

Not sure if your weak relay bears any resemblance but I got some feedback on a weakness signal here...
https://www.bridgeba...-as-end-signal/

[DinDIP]

 straube, on 2019-December-10, 08:23, said:

I'm playing Adam's method. Do you have the right continuations?

1S-2C, ?-relay break = GI 5 hearts

1S-2D,
.....2H-denies 4 hearts, various hands
.....2S-5S/4H, minimum
.....2N-5S/4H, max

Thanks David: had adopted that over 1♥ but missed that it also applied over 1♠. Is there any further differentiation of opener's maximum hands? Does 3♥ show a max 55? Is 3♠ a max with 6S and 4H? (Both seem sensible to me.)

[straube]

 DinDIP, on 2019-December-10, 20:34, said:

Thanks David: had adopted that over 1♥ but missed that it also applied over 1♠. Is there any further differentiation of opener's maximum hands? Does 3♥ show a max 55? Is 3♠ a max with 6S and 4H? (Both seem sensible to me.)

No. After either 1H-2C or 1S-2D, the 3H, 3S, and 3N rebids show max 534m1s with high, middle and low short. We follow Adam and Sieong there.

Now I'm not sure how they continue after 1S-2D, 2N (showing max 5S/4H) but I'm certain they have a mechanism to unravel that. It wouldn't surprise me if they use what we do because it's based on their NT structure.

3C-asks
.....3D-5/5 or 6/4
..........3H-3H
...............3S-6S/4H
..........3S-2S, not 3H
...............3N-5S/5H
.....3H-5413
.....3S-5431
.....3N-5422

I didn't want to interrupt your bidding session but if you're interested in feedback...

1S-1N, 3H with a 13 pt 5512. This imo should have gone 1S-1N, 2H-2S, 3H

1S-1N, 2D P with an 11 pt 1435 or something which should have rebid 2N. With 2 spades you'd rebid 2S and then let opener take another bid with a max.

1S-P with some 6ct 1534 which can bid and pass anything

We've pretty much agreed that 1S-1N, 2H-3H is a courtesy raise (like 8-10) and 1S-1N, 2H-4H is a limit raise. Maybe there's a better solution (false preference to 2S?) but I don't know what it would be.

[straube]

What do you play now after 1M is doubled? System on? Transfers? 1H dbl 1S is natural?

[awm]

Transfers from 1nt, 1S natural, 2nt as a strong raise with 4+ and XX as general values (usually no fit).

[straube]

Thank you