[eagles123]

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any thoughts how to find the excellent 7D on these hands starting with north, opps silent? We ended in 6N by south, a club wasn't led and 13 tricks when hearts split was a 90% board in a weak field, but felt like we should have found 7D

thanks

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

OK, first, how good is it ?

40% for ♦2-2

if diamonds are 3-1 or 4-0 then hearts 3-3 or doubleton J10 either side so 60% x (35% + 3.2%) = 23% so 63%

Then if neither of those happen, you need the same hand to have 4 hearts and 3 diamonds or a miracle in the club suit with the A ruffing down, about another 2 or 3%.

I don't mind being in this or not being in this.

We start 1♦-3N(13-15 3334) and now I think we're ending up in 6N.

[eagles123]

also have possibility of heart/club squeeze surely

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2020-February-06, 11:59, said:

also have possibility of heart/club squeeze surely

Yes you do, you need the club ace in the same hand as the 4+ hearts which will add a significant amount, but you'll lose some of the other chances so it is probably around the 80% mark that people quote for a grand.

In a bad field I'd take the decent score in 6N.

(Particularly having a hand recently where we bid a grand on either AKQ9x/108x or A10x/KQxxx to come in and neither did, then found they were in game at the other table)

[apollo1201]

The issue is S will not let N show his 2-suiter as it starts 1D-3NT. Then 4D to clearly state slam prospects, S is aceless but has Qxx so cooperates by cueing 4H rather than a sign off in 4NT. And N probably jumps at 6D that S will surely correct to 6NT because it is pairs and to protect the clubs.
In a standard field it is probably a good score as others said.

[Cyberyeti]

apollo1201, on 2020-February-06, 13:38, said:

The issue is S will not let N show his 2-suiter as it starts 1D-3NT. Then 4D to clearly state slam prospects, S is aceless but has Qxx so cooperates by cueing 4H rather than a sign off in 4NT. And N probably jumps at 6D that S will surely correct to 6NT because it is pairs and to protect the clubs.
In a standard field it is probably a good score as others said.

either 4♦ or 5♣ voidwood

[apollo1201]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-06, 13:40, said:

either 4♦ or 5♣ voidwood

I’d figure out a weakish 55 minors...and leave you in 5C.

I guess you bid 4C then 5C with those?

[nige1]

Eagles123 "Any thoughts how to find the excellent 7D on these hands starting with north, opps silent? We ended in 6N by south, a club wasn't led and 13 tricks when hearts split was a 90% board in a weak field, but felt like we should have found 7D"
++++++++++++++++++++

The Jasmine 1♣ auction on the left is a bit of a Kludge.
7♦ is hard to bid but is a reasonable contract ...
- ♦ might break 2-2.
- The opening leader might try to cash ♣A or ♣A might ruff out in 3.
- if ♦ are 3-1, you might succeed on a dummy-reversal. For example on a trump lead ...
♦7, ruff a ♣, ♦Q, ruff a ♣, ♥Q, ruff a ♣, ♥K, ruff a ♣, ♠Q, ♦8, claim.
- ♥JT might be doubleton
- ♥ might break 3-3.
- The defender guarding ♥ might have ♣A and succumb to a minor suit squeeze .

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[helene_t]

Isn't the dummy reverse the best play? You always make it when hearts are no worse than 4-2 and diamonds no worse than 3-1 and spades no worse than 6-1. If diamonds are 2-2 or the short diamonds are with the short hearts, you survive a 5-1 break in hearts also. And if diamonds are 4-0 you discover it early and can go for some other line.

But even in Tarzan Precision there's no way to ask for ♦9 (or ♦8, if North is captain). So you won't know this during the bidding.

[nullve]

eagles123, on 2020-February-06, 11:32, said:

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any thoughts how to find the excellent 7D on these hands starting with north, opps silent?

nullve-nullve:

1♦(1)-1♥(2)
1♠(3)-2♦(4)
2N(5)-3♣(6)
4♣(7)-4♥(8)
4♠(9)-4N(10)
5♣(11)-5♥(12)
5N(13)-7♦(14)
P.

(1) "10+, NAT(ish) unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
(2) "0+, (3*)4+ S"
(3) "10-21, 4+ H, unBAL" OR "10-15, 13(54)"
(4) relay, GF unless Opener has 10-12 hcp and 13(54))**
(5) "19-21" (or, rather: meets the rule of 28 but not the rule of 31)
(6) relay
(7) 18-20 hcp, 3460
(8) key card ask agreeing D
(9) even # of key cards
(10) trump Q ask
(11) no trump Q
(12) ♠K ask
(13) ♠K, no ♥J
(14) contract

* I recently removed all BAL hands from the 2♣ response (it was getting very crowded after 1♦-2♣, and much more so than after 1M-2♣), but before that the auction would have gone something like

Spoiler

1♦(1)-2♣(2)
2♦(3)-2♠(4)
4♣(5)-4♥(6)
4♠(7)-4N(8)
5♣(9)-5♥(10)
5N(11)-7♦(12)
P.

(1) "10+, NAT(ish) unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
(2) essentially "NAT, BAL or SUPP" with "GF unless rebid" strength
(3) "10-12, any" OR "20-22 BAL" OR "19+, (or, rather, meeting the rule of 28) either 4+ H or 1-suited"
(4) relay with no slam interest opposite "10-12"
(5) 18+ hcp, 3460
(6) key card ask agreeing D
(7) even # of key cards
(8) trump Q ask
(9) no trump Q
(10) ♠K ask
(11) ♠K, no ♥Q
(12) contract

** Using 2♦ as an "almost GF" relay is a new idea, thanks to being forced to look over my XYZ-like structure so I could bid the above hands properly! Until now i've been using 2♣ as the almost GF relay, and continuations were designed to mimic the continuations after 1♥-2♣. This led to ugliness in the form of tons of idle bids and exceptions. Not that it matters here --- by using the structure with 2♣ as the LR or GF relay the auction would have gone

Spoiler

1♦(1)-1♥(2)
1♠(3)-2♣(4)
2♦(5)-2♥(6)
2♠(7)-2N(8)
4♣(9)-4♥(10)
4♠(11)-4N(12)
5♣(13)-5♥(14)
5N(15)-7♦(16)
P.

(1) "10+, NAT(ish) unBAL" OR "20-22 BAL"
(2) "0+, (3*)4+ S"
(3) "10-21, 4+ H, unBAL" OR "10-15, 13(54)"
(4) relay, GF unless Opener has 10-12 hcp and 13(54))
(5) "10-12, would have accepted game opposite LR" OR "13-15, any" OR "19-21, 4+H5+D"
(6) relay (GF)
(7) not "13-15"
(8) relay
(9) 18-20 hcp, 3460
(10) key card ask agreeing D
(11) even # of key cards
(12) trump Q ask
(13) no trump Q
(14) ♠K ask
(15) ♠K, no ♥J
(16) contract

[Zelandakh]

I suspect most natural auctions will, in practice, end up with South bidding 4♦ at some point to show slam interest and which contract is then reached depends on what slam methods are being employed. Many pairs are just going to RKCB, find out about ♦Q and ♥K and then not have a way of uncovering whether there is a slow loser in a major. Settling for 6NT at that point, assuming it was not wrong-sided earlier in the auction, is probably quite sensible.

The "trick" here is for South to be the one taking charge. Perhaps that 4♦ bid was Minorwood, for example. Then North can show an even number of key cards with a void and ♠K, which is enough. One possible auction might be:-

1♦ - 2♣;
2♥ - 3♦;
3♠ - 4♦;
5♦ - 5♠;
5N - 7♦

I think you are doing yourself a disservice though in being critical of playing in 6NT. It is a good contract to reach on these cards, particularly with club-level methods. Even in the relatively simple auction above, for example, there are agreements assumed (basically every call above 3NT) that go beyond those of the vast majority of club pairs.

For a strong club relay pair it should be trivial for North to find out all of the important information about the South hand, or indeed, as per nullve, the reverse. But the strong club pair will probably have to deal with some interference in clubs meaning that in reality they are not going to be much better off than the natural bidders.