[mw64ahw]

Playing Kokish relay if it matters with a Weak 2♦

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[DavidKok]

East's hand is not worth a 2♣ opener. The hand is riddled with losers and should just open 1♠. If it goes all pass we most likely won't have missed game. I'm not sure what your methods are over that opening, but it might give you a better chance at locating the heart fit and establishing a GF at a low level.

Whether or not you get to 6♥ or stay out of it is a different story, and I don't know how the auction would proceed.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-July-03, 01:41, said:

East's hand is not worth a 2♣ opener. The hand is riddled with losers and should just open 1♠. If it goes all pass we most likely won't have missed game. I'm not sure what your methods are over that opening, but it might give you a better chance at locating the heart fit and establishing a GF at a low level.

Whether or not you get to 6♥ or stay out of it is a different story, and I don't know how the auction would proceed.

I agree this is a 1♠ opener but disagree we're unlikely to miss game, pretty much any hand with ♥Q10xxx will offer good chances (indeed x, Q10987, xx, xxxxx may make a slam if they don't find the trump lead or A♥ is stiff).

Playing no gadgets, it's difficult as over

1♠-1N
3♥

it's quite difficult for responder to bid anything other than 4♥, and even if the big hand does go on, he will not know about responder's 5th heart which is the crucial factor in making the slam decent (make the 10♥ the 10♣ and you really don't want to be in it). I suspect you will be in 4 or 5 rather than 6.

A simple strong club auction where it starts 1♣-1♦-1♠-2♥ you might get there.

[DavidKok]

It is easy to construct a beautiful hand where game is missed. Much more often partner will have the values for a response, or an offshape hand where game is bad, or the opponents have the shape or values to keep the auction live. Bidding systems simply aren't good enough to find game and slam whenever it is right, and stay low (possibly even in the optimal strain) when it is not. I'm happy we agree this is a 1♠ opener, but I think we disagree on the interpretation of 'most likely' in this context. I stopped worrying about perfect sub-minima a long time ago, and the gains outweigh the losses.

I expect the strong club auction might not quite have a clean auction over, say, 1♣-(2♣)-?, 1♣-(1NT* both minors)-? or even 1♣-(3♣). There sure seem to be quite a few minor suit cards outstanding. Nevertheless I expect to find 4♥ and investigate 6♥ after that start, it just won't happen cleanly at the 2-level.

[Cyberyeti]

The easiest way to get there is the old fashioned 2♣-2♦(neg)-2♠-3♥ but even then you know it's on finding the ♥Q or having a stiff spade.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-03, 03:24, said:

The easiest way to get there is the old fashioned 2♣-2♦(neg)-2♠-3♥ but even then you know it's on finding the ♥Q or having a stiff spade.

The Q♥ is less relevant here as you have a 9 card fit and can finesse either way if the Queen doesn't drop, so better than 50%. For East I think Q♦ is the key as you can look for ♣ ruffs and then need an extra trick. I was thinking that perhaps in 2♣ openings the weaker hand should show any of AKQ, but don't know if there is any existing approach/theory for these situations?

It's the same issue over a 1♠ opening; I easily get to 4♥, but wouldn't think about showing Queens as partner will stack up with fewer controls. I open 2♣ with 4 modified losers, 4 quick tricks and 8 controls, 23+ total points, but one for a poll I think.

[paulg]

Although it is 53% to play the trump suit for no losers, you still have two club losers to deal with which becomes more of an issue when there is singleton ♥Q.

So this is a slam where I am ambivalent about whether I bid it or not. In reality, I think it is difficult to bid with any confidence and it makes little difference what the opening bid is although I'd start with 1♠.

[mycroft]

The people who are saying "this isn't a 2♣ opener" are doing so at least partly because after 2♣-2♦; 2♠-3♥; (one of responder's calls is GF), the strong hand doesn't know if there are 12 tricks on the ♥A, and has no way of finding out. And the weak hand keycarding (absent some "please KC if you have tricks" convention) is usually bad, so they won't either.

Of course, after 1♠-1NT(F);3♥ most pairs won't have a "agree hearts, nothing to cuebid, but still slam interest" call. Many of them will KC for lack of anything better to do, and do the "1 or 4" - 5♥; 6♥ dance.

As others are saying, it turns out that we *don't* have 12 tricks before 2 losers, because it's a double dummy make and my partners never guess the queen right. But some will be there, and some will make it.

[mikeh]

I'm not getting there. I think 2C is silly, for the reasons posted above, but it is irrelevant.

Had it gone 2C 2D (positive, waiting) then opener bids 2S and responder bids 3H, which in our methods doesn't deny AQxxx but, if we do have AQxxx(x), we have a complex hand and will likely bid over 4H.

Opener, with weak spades and expecting an issue in hearts should responder pass 4H, has an easy 4H bid....after all, he did open 2C!

in my preferred method, it goes

1S 1N
3C 3C shows one of a monster one suiter, lacking the hcp/defence for 2C, or a black gf two suiter or specifically 5=4 or 6=4 in the majors. 3C forces to game
3D relay: asking which hand opener holds
3H 6=4 or 5=4 majors
4H no reason to bid more and no convenient way to do so


I never worry about missing borderline slams. I never worry about having reached borderline slams either. What is critical, imo, is to stay within one's methods. Every bidding system with which I am familiar, and I am familiar to a greater or lesser extent with (I think) every mainstream method in top level bridge, has hands it cannot handle optimally. System design inevitably involves compromises....each pair assess whether a particular approach bestows more gains than losses, but losses (in accuracy) are inevitable on hands that fit the methods poorly.

Chase every 'good' game or slam, and you'll reach a lot of hopeless or simply poor contracts: here, my methods don't let me reach slam. If the opps, at the other table, do...good on them, but I'm not changing how I bid just because we lost a bunch of imps when the cards were friendly.

[johnu]

mw64ahw, on 2023-July-03, 04:13, said:

The Q♥ is less relevant here as you have a 9 card fit and can finesse either way if the Queen doesn't drop, so better than 50%.

You can't finesse either way if the ♥Q doesn't drop. With no knowledge of the opposing hands, you play off either ♥A or ♥K and if the ♥Q doesn't drop, you can only finesse one way.

Best percentage play is ~53% if you play for the drop. A 2nd round finesse is ~51+%

[naskippy]

I would do as others, but it is dependent on the game I am having. Are we doing well or are we below average and need to fly for some exceptional boards/scores.

If I am doing well in the round, I am opening 1S and see where it takes me. I agree the 2C opening is risky and that there are too many losers in the East hand for this to be a 2C opener.

If I need some action due to, we are below average and need to try for a top I am opening 2NT, which is legal with the stiff Ace of Clubs. You could now easily find the heart fit in the auction when your partner transfers you to hearts.

In your auction the 2D waiting call was appropriate. If you play 2H as a Bust hand your partner should know you have at least an Ace, King or 2 Queens in your hand. Thus, you rebid 3H to show your suit and values and let your partner take it from there. He should know you have at least a 5 card heart suit as he knows you do not have a killer 4 card suit in hearts. So that is my personal view, although some may disagree with what I have stated.

Skippy