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stolen an undoubled psyche

Poll: stolen (12 member(s) have cast votes)

Who should do more?

  1. East should double (3 votes [17.65%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.65%

  2. East should bid 4S/show some raise (8 votes [47.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.06%

  3. West should double 2H or bid 3S (2 votes [11.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  4. West should double 3NT (4 votes [23.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 23.53%

  5. West should bid 4S over 3NT (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Other actions needed (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. No blame (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 10:22



IMPs scoring. The contract went 3 off, but lost 11 with the other table in 4S+1. Who should have stopped this?
Wayne Somerville
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#2 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 11:26

Interesting hand, thank you. North's psyche is an old ploy. East needs to do something about it. I prefer 4 but double is OK. You could make a case for 3 on the West hand, but as long as you play "don't bid weak over weak" I think 2 is enough.
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#3 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 11:28

probably light to X and bid as west. to strong for 2 overcall direct. maybe X their 3NT bid, then they run 4and then what? east is in better position to expose psyche with two entries A and K so east should X and if they run to 4, then east bid 4. but easy for me to say as I can see all hands. good psyche sometimes win.
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#4 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 12:13

Can't West double when it came back round to them? From their perspective, where are NS's tricks coming from.
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#5 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 15:02

East should be checked for a pulse.
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#6 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 15:07

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-03, 12:13, said:

Can't West double when it came back round to them? From their perspective, where are NS's tricks coming from.


He can, but at this vulnerability it doesn't solve much, even if IMPs.
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#7 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 15:29

View Postpescetom, on 2021-April-03, 15:07, said:

He can, but at this vulnerability it doesn't solve much, even if IMPs.


They at least take +500 which is better than +150 for letting them play it undoubled. West can't do anything about East's silence, but they can take the initiative themself. The double may also inspire East to bid 4, especially if North runs to 4.
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#8 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 16:47

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-03, 15:29, said:

They at least take +500 which is better than +150 for letting them play it undoubled. West can't do anything about East's silence, but they can take the initiative themself. The double may also inspire East to bid 4, especially if North runs to 4.


X can also turn +50 or +100 into -200 or -500 when E is broke. W has a good hand, but it needs SUBSTANTIAL help to really take tricks. Calling for W to X 3NT feels very result-y to me.
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#9 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 17:34

I don't think you can blame East. East was taking a well needed nap and it would have been rude to wake them up by making them think about making a call.
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#10 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2021-April-03, 17:45

View Postjohnu, on 2021-April-03, 17:34, said:

I don't think you can blame East. East was taking a well needed nap and it would have been rude to wake them up by making them think about making a call.

This.
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#11 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2021-April-04, 09:33

I'd have bid 3 as West (close but swayed by the excellent spades) and would have doubled as East (not close). If they stand the double they win but far less (500 vs 650 is merely unfortunate at imps, not the 11 imp disaster of the actual result).
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#12 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2021-April-05, 04:10

When both players are too timid on a competitive auction...

W can bid 3S first if that is his style (minimum given a stiff K in the assortment) or can then X again - unless N has ATxx S and has enough C tricks, as with Kxx, dummy’s H can probably be neutralized, N is no where near 9 tricks.

E can also X, they know N doesn’t have a running minor with a S stop, and having an A and a K plus a long S suit to establish and then reach partner who has more a less an opening hand can’t produce 9 tricks for N.

Then the psyche is easily exposed and it is tempting to bid 4S.
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#13 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-05, 06:43

View PostTylerE, on 2021-April-03, 16:47, said:

Calling for W to X 3NT feels very result-y to me.


Not really, I just looked at the West hand in isolation. I would very likely go for a penalty, as I said where are NS's tricks coming from? If partner can't trust me and pulls it to a hopeless game I'll have to pay out, but partner ought to deduce I have doubled for penalties when he has shown and could easily have nothing, so it is not the same situation as doubling a weak NT for penalties. If I do my best to bring in a fair or good score and fail I'm not going to cry over it.
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#14 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2021-April-05, 07:32

Couple thoughts

First: I agree that West should double 3NT.

Its highly unlikely that the opponents can urun 9 tricks before spades are established and cashing. (The one danger here is if the partnership is using double to ask for something other than a spade lad or some such)

Second: I think that East can reasonable bid 4!S. You have a stiff heart, 4 card support, an Ace and a King.
If partner has a real overcall, 4 should have play

Equally significant, those minor suit honors mean that RHO doesn't have a hand that can expect to run a minor. (Something is fishy)
Alderaan delenda est
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#15 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-05, 09:20

If west posted this hand, it’s his fault entirely.

If not, then it’s pretty clearly 99% east.

(Apologies for stealing Michael Rosenberg’s approach to these one-sided ATB type posts)
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#16 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2021-April-05, 13:14

What would east do if west had opened 1s in the absence of partnership notes? IMHO they are VERY VERY close to a jump to 4s. The singleton heart in the present bidding is even more valuable than in a vacuum. Preempts work or we would never do them. Just try to make a bid similar to what you would do w/o the preempt (that will be pass many times). Here a bid of 4s seems easily called for. There is no strong reason to assume both their 3n and our 4s can't both make so x seems out of the question. x in the PO seat after east passes 3n is truly stretching. blame 93% east 7% north for making a excellent bid. I wonder if North will soon see a subpoena for too many "psyches" in our ever growing litigious fervor.
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#17 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-09, 19:50

View PostLBengtsson, on 2021-April-03, 11:28, said:

probably light to X and bid as west.

The vast majority of good players use "X then bid" over a preempt to show a flexible hand. West's hand does not look like that to me whatever the strength. If I wanted to sell the hand as strong I would prefer a 3 overcall to a X but 2 here is enough. As others have already pointed out, the issue is rather that East was on a coffee break and their son/daughter/cat somehow managed to click on the green card. On doubling 3NT, I would probably be too worried about North having long clubs to run plus a couple of aces for that but if hrothgar likes it then I am probably being too conservative. Even if you consider this to be an error though, it is clearly a lesser error than East passing.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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