[Elianna]

The_Hog, on Jun 13 2005, 06:27 PM, said:

"Funny how a point makes a difference. Most modern bridge teachers teach 2NT shows 20-21."

Really? I love generalisations like this. I would be very interested in seeing the results of your survey of "most modern bridge teachers."

Funny how you seem to protest about generalizations such as that, and yet you said 2NT shows 20-22 in most standard systems? Is that not a generalization?

Mine at least is likely to be accurate. While I have not taken a survey of modern bridge teachers, I have seen teaching material put out by the ACBL, which states that opening 2NT has a range of 20-21.

Granted, the ACBL is not the be all and end all of modern bridge, nor of what's "standard" and I probably made a mistake when I said most modern teachers, I should have said american teachers. If you wish to investigate, go to the acbl webpage, download their manual for teachers, and look at page 15 (section 1, deal 6)

Where do you get the info for YOUR claims? Or are YOUR generalizations exempt from needing to be backed up.

[Elianna]

The_Hog, on Jun 13 2005, 06:01 PM, said:

Eh! Last time I looked a 2NT opening shows 20-22 in most standard systems.

Now that you've got my attention, look at even the yellow card, which many people on bbo tend to treat as "Standard American", and at bbo standard and bbo advanced.

A link to an image of the yellow card (ie SAYC) is: http://www.bridgeprotour.com/ (click on yellow card on the bottom of the page).

I'll await your sources with anticipation.

[Winstonm]

Quibbling over a measley 1 high card point seems a little senseless, when we all know that whatever the range it's the quality of the hand rather than exact point count that makes it worth 2C-2N.

Also, I am fully aware of what being a jack short of my bid makes me...

[Elianna]

Winstonm, on Jun 13 2005, 06:55 PM, said:

Quibbling over a measley 1 high card point seems a little senseless, when we all know that whatever the range it's the quality of the hand rather than exact point count that makes it worth 2C-2N.

Also, I am fully aware of what being a jack short of my bid makes me...

With all due respect here, Wiston, The Hog and I are NOT quibbling over 1 point right now. I agree that it's irrelevant to bridge, but it's completely relevant to how quite a few people on the forums treat others.

[Winstonm]

Quote

On that note...you suck!

And, of course, this reminds me of another bridge story.

Years ago the director was summoned to the table and a "player who will remain nameless" stated that his opponents had called him a "lousy &*!@#$##$!"

His complaint it turns out was not over the derogatory term; rather he complained vehemently about being called, "Lousy". ROFLMAO.

[the hog]

Elianna, on Jun 14 2005, 11:58 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jun 13 2005, 06:55 PM, said:

Quibbling over a measley 1 high card point seems a little senseless, when we all know that whatever the range it's the quality of the hand rather than exact point count that makes it worth 2C-2N.

Also, I am fully aware of what being a jack short of my bid makes me... 

With all due respect here, Wiston, The Hog and I are NOT quibbling over 1 point right now. I agree that it's irrelevant to bridge, but it's completely relevant to how quite a few people on the forums treat others.

Not at all; I just get amused when people make blanket statements and expect others to accept them as gospel truth.

[the hog]

Ho hum Justin, look at the online system cards on the ecats site of those who play a strong 2NT opening. While you are at it, look up the same information on Daniel's system site.

[pmacfar]

Pass is the last thing I would do after a 2♣ opener. With the hand provided, respond 2♦ and see what partner does. If he bids 2♥, rebid 3♣ (2nd negative, less than 3 pts.) If he bids 2NT, pass. you know partner only has 22-23 HCP. the tough one is when he bids 2♠, partner denies having a heart suit, you have 3 card support for his ♠s and he probably has a minor suit for which you have a second suit fit with.

[fifee]

Pass is never an option after a 2♣ opener for my partnerships. In 2/1, 2C is forcing to game or 4 of a minor with no fit, in other systems may only be forcing 1 round with nothing, but stilll absolutely forcing.

Partnership trust will fly out the window if I pass 2♣.

[Fluffy]

Passing a forcing bid is something my partners will do only once.

[luke warm]

Fluffy, on Jun 15 2005, 04:22 PM, said:

Passing a forcing bid is something my partners will do only once.

please add "passing a forcing bid ON PURPOSE..."

[Gerben42]

Great, it's all this thread's fault. Tonight I had a bad dream. I just started playing relay precision with one of my most regular partners and in the dream I was playing with him and the auction went 1♣ all pass. We did win 3 IMPs on the board though when I made it and the other table the 2♣ was passed out and down one, but still... It wasn't much fun playing the contract, even in my sleep

[joker_gib]

Fluffy, on Jun 15 2005, 11:22 PM, said:

Passing a forcing bid is something my partners will do only once.

Same for me

Alain

[helene_t]

luke warm, on Jun 16 2005, 12:20 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jun 15 2005, 04:22 PM, said:

Passing a forcing bid is something my partners will do only once.

please add "passing a forcing bid ON PURPOSE..."

I agree. However, I've seen examples by high-esteemed authors, where passing a forcing bid was suggested:

Example from Lawrence's 2-o-1 workbook:
1♠-1NT*
3♦-pass**

Example from Hoogekamps "5-kaart hoog voor iedereen":
1♣-1♥*
(a reverse or whatever)-pass**

*(bid something to scare the opps, or to seek a better part-score)
**(I should have passed before so I pass now)

It may be a question of semantics. I think that if there is a single hand (even far-fetched) that may pass in such a situation, it should be termed semi-forcing rather than forcing. Just to avoid diluting forcing bids. (And then one exception remains: if you have psyched, you can sometimes expose your psyche by passing a forcing bid).

With this said, passing a 2♣-opening remains unacceptable.

[daswallow]

Passing a 2c opener is clearly ill-advised and will harm partnership trust. I would never even consider it even with the flattest, worst hand possible.
OK, you may gain on occasions, but if you have passed out 2c when partner has a monster he will be furious and will not want to keep the partnership going.

The 2c bid is a statement - "Partner, I have a game forcing hand".
Pass is then saying "I don't care what you have!".

Incidently I once had my 2c open passed out, as partner (first and last time) thought it was weak after we agreed to play weak 2's, which they weren't too familiar with.

[awm]

Seems like there are two occasions when passing a forcing bid is acceptable (other than a forget I suppose):

(1) When partner previously made a nonforcing call, and I don't have the values for my previous bidding. Examples are auctions like 1♠-1NT-3♦. If I have a zero-count and bid 1NT just to improve the contract, I can now pass 3♦. After all, I could've passed 1♠ -- partner can't have a hand that wants game opposite nothing.

(2) It's known that game is out of reach. An example might be (1NT)-2♣ to me... if partner's 2♣ is majors and I have a weak hand with a bunch of clubs, I can pass. I know that there are too many points with the notrump opener (if strong notrumps) for us to have a game on a misfitting hand.

[mike777]

Ok upon further thought and rereading these posts I guess passing 2clubs is best:
1) My bbo partners never have a strong 2club opener anyway, they have overbid.
2) Read on a BBO forum post best to let strong hand be declarer
3) My BBO partner said we are playing weak 2 bids
4) Read on BBO forum when in doubt, pass is best. Pass in not a dirty word, etc.
5) My opp's always balance anyway so now I have described my weak hand best.
6) If we get a good result, that is all that matters. Did not Bob Hamman say winning bridge players make the winning bid not the best or right bid? Let others debate theory I want to win.
7) I always forget what we agreed to play over 2clubs anyway, too many choices.
8) What is all this stuff about partnership harmony and trust anyway? Every partner hated Lew Mathe and he won all the time and they hated him every hand.
9) I thought we agreed to open those hand types at the one level to conserve bidding space.
10) I knew you would have a rebid problem if you opened that hand 2 clubs, NOW THAT I HAVE PASSED DO YOU TRUST ME? YOU REALLY DO HAVE A REBID PROBLEM SEE!