[Winstonm]

 DavidKok, on 2021-July-13, 12:53, said:

3♦. Parter can bid 3NT with good spades, 3♥ with a doubleton or 3♠ with desire to play 3NT instead of 4♥ even opposite a hand that cannot bid 3♠ (and we can accept if the ♠xxx are actually ♠Jxx). If disaster strikes and partner has, say, 3=1=5=4 opposite this 3=6=2=2 then I don't even know what I'd like to play seeing both hands, never mind seeing only 13 cards.

I am confused - when would partner have the chance to bid 3D? Are you saying bid 3D instead of 2H? That seems to be the only chance with the auction given.

[P_Marlowe]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-13, 12:22, said:

West would cue 4♣ after David's forward going 3♠

Opposite MikeH it would have proceeded;
1♥:2♣
2♥:2N
3♥:3♠
4♣:4♦
4♠:5♥ (kickback / 2 with Q)
7♥. (I know we have all keycards and East has made a spade cue, or perhaps I'm influenced by knowing the hand)


This was our auction. Noone found the grand, one pair bid 6NT, all others were in 6♥

---

You can inqure about specific kings, 6H over 5H is a lazy bid, even if not playing specific kings, it does not hurt to ask,
if you find both kinds, you can count 13 tricks, finding 1 minor suit king, you will only be able to count to 12
6H, 3D, 2S, 1C, ..., this allowes you at least to bid 6NT. I am not sure, you can safely ask about 7th heart or the Q of spades.

[DavidKok]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-13, 13:44, said:

I am confused - when would partner have the chance to bid 3D? Are you saying bid 3D instead of 2H? That seems to be the only chance with the auction given.

I thought the problem auction was 1♥-2♦; 2♥-3♣; ? where I would bid 3♦ with ♠xxx, ♥Axxxxx, ♦KJ, ♣Kx.

[mw64ahw]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-13, 12:22, said:

West would cue 4♣ after David's forward going 3♠

Opposite MikeH it would have proceeded;
1♥:2♣
2♥:2N
3♥:3♠
4♣:4♦
4♠:5♥ (kickback / 2 with Q)
7♥. (I know we have all keycards and East has made a spade cue, or perhaps I'm influenced by knowing the hand)


This was our auction. Noone found the grand, one pair bid 6NT, all others were in 6♥

---

Namyats 4♣ - 4♦ slam invite

[Cyberyeti]

My first thought was isn't this a poster child for 1♥-2♣/♦-3♥ setting the suit, it's very umlikely you want to play anywhere else and your suit is playable opposite a void, next stop 7N.

[Winstonm]

 DavidKok, on 2021-July-13, 14:36, said:

I thought the problem auction was 1♥-2♦; 2♥-3♣; ? where I would bid 3♦ with ♠xxx, ♥Axxxxx, ♦KJ, ♣Kx.

Ok, now I’m following.

[nullve]

 Cyberyeti, on 2021-July-13, 15:36, said:

My first thought was isn't this a poster child for 1♥-2♣/♦-3♥ setting the suit, it's very umlikely you want to play anywhere else and your suit is playable opposite a void, next stop 7N.

So e.g.

1♥-2♣
3♥(1)-3♠(2)
4N(3)-5♣(4)
7♥(5)-7N(6)
P

1) setting H as trumps
2) cue (A,K,singleton or void)
3) RKC
4) 0 or 3 key cards
5) counting 13 tricks
6) logic

[jillybean]

 P_Marlowe, on 2021-July-13, 12:44, said:

PS: Seeing both hands, what was wrong with 3H instead of 2H? The 7th heart with AQJ should be enough
to set the suit, and Kx in diamonds, is no reason to downgrade the hand.
Not finding the grand after both played hide and seek is no surprise, be grateful you landed on your feet.

Hi, I avoid making a jump once we are in a GF auction because I "know" partner's next bid will be game, regardless of what they hold and I am much more likely to find out about their hand and elicit a cue bid if we go slowly. Yes, masterminding again.
As you say, this hand is ideal for a 3♥ rebid to set trump and start a cue bidding sequence and no other sequence would describe this hand.
In this sequence, I assume a cue bid from partner is mandatory.

[Winstonm]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-15, 16:07, said:

Hi, I avoid making a jump once we are in a GF auction because I "know" partner's next bid will be game, regardless of what they hold and I am much more likely to find out about their hand and elicit a cue bid if we go slowly. Yes, masterminding again.
As you say, this hand is ideal for a 3♥ rebid to set trump and start a cue bidding sequence and no other sequence would describe this hand.
In this sequence, I assume a cue bid from partner is mandatory.

Sorry to jump in but in my estimation there should be no or almost no mandatory cue bids.

The point of bidding is to describe each hand and reach a
mutually agreed contract.

When you jump to 3, setting the suit pretty much, you are still only describing your hand. Partner has a vote.

[gszes]

while I am generally unhappy with the bidding the real problem occurred when responder bid 6h over 5h. Opener has never had a chance to define their power in the bidding. OPPOSITE an undefined hand, the only reason to bid 6h over 5h is when you are missing a key card. Bid 5n asking for kings (and showing all of the key cards) and surely opener will suddenly see fit to bid 7h with their wonderful 16 count which they have not been able to show so far.

[P_Marlowe]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-15, 18:02, said:

Sorry to jump in but in my estimation there should be no or almost no mandatory cue bids.

The point of bidding is to describe each hand and reach a
mutually agreed contract.

When you jump to 3, setting the suit pretty much, you are still only describing your hand. Partner has a vote.

The jump also showes SI, ..., after all partner made a 2/1, so taken together 3H starts a cue bidding seq.,
and I dont think partner should sign of in 4H (or 3NT) if he has a cue.

[AL78]

I reckon there are one or two people at my club who would open that West hand a Benji 2♣ followed by 3♥ after the relay. I'm not saying that is best but after such a start East is always driving to a grand.

[jillybean]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-15, 18:02, said:

Sorry to jump in but in my estimation there should be no or almost no mandatory cue bids.

The point of bidding is to describe each hand and reach a
mutually agreed contract.

When you jump to 3, setting the suit pretty much, you are still only describing your hand. Partner has a vote.

Does he? Aren't are saying to partner; I have the trump suit, please give me your first cue?

I'm not saying this is the optimum method, I do not like jumps once we are in a gf auction but perhaps it best fits this hand and starts a mandatory cue bidding sequence.

[Winstonm]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-16, 10:18, said:

Does he? Aren't are saying to partner; I have the trump suit, please give me your first cue?

I'm not saying this is the optimum method, I do not like jumps once we are in a gf auction but perhaps it best fits this hand and starts a mandatory cue bidding sequence.

IMO, and, as I always have played with my long time partners, the first cue bid is initially taken as a suggestion and a question - I kind of like my hand for slam, how about you?
But if partner answers this question no - by a simple raise to game, he or she can be compelled to cue with a further cue bid.

So in this auction, 1H-2C-3H-4H. Partner has heard your bid. He or she does not think slam is a good idea. Kxx, x, QJxx, KQJxx? This rejection does not bar further exploration, though. 4S at this point would compel a responsive cue bid,.

But that is only my ideas - your mileage may vary.

[Gilithin]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-16, 10:55, said:

IMO, and, as I always have played with my long time partners, the first cue bid is initially taken as a suggestion and a question - I kind of like my hand for slam, how about you?

Is this not where Frivolous 3X shines? The first step says you do not like your hand for slam (but still gives partner space to explore) while higher steps show controls and say that you do like your hand (with 3NT replacing the spade cue if trumps are hearts rather than spades). Seems to combine the best aspects of both concepts.

[Winstonm]

 Gilithin, on 2021-July-16, 11:41, said:

Is this not where Frivolous 3X shines? The first step says you do not like your hand for slam (but still gives partner space to explore) while higher steps show controls and say that you do like your hand (with 3NT replacing the spade cue if trumps are hearts rather than spades). Seems to combine the best aspects of both concepts.

Yes, that is a good treatment as long as everyone remembers when 3n is not to play,

[jillybean]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-16, 10:55, said:

IMO, and, as I always have played with my long time partners, the first cue bid is initially taken as a suggestion and a question - I kind of like my hand for slam, how about you?
But if partner answers this question no - by a simple raise to game, he or she can be compelled to cue with a further cue bid.

So in this auction, 1H-2C-3H-4H. Partner has heard your bid. He or she does not think slam is a good idea. Kxx, x, QJxx, KQJxx? This rejection does not bar further exploration, though. 4S at this point would compel a responsive cue bid,.

But that is only my ideas - your mileage may vary.

I do see your point and it does make sense if you can trust your partner. 1H-2C-3H-4H is the type of auction I am trying to avoid, opener has shown a strong hand and responders 2C is unlimited. Without a cue, or non-serious 3nt I'm often compelled to bid on over game, sometimes it works, other times 5H-1 when we should have stopped in game. I am trying to cater for forgets and reluctance to cooperate in a cue bidding auction and of course, no matter what approach we take, I can't bid both hands. As mentioned before, I have to focus on bidding my hand expertly.

[Gilithin]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-16, 12:06, said:

Yes, that is a good treatment as long as everyone remembers when 3n is not to play,

Well that is why I specifically avoided the auction 1♦ - 2♣ - 3♦, which is somewhat more controversial. If you play Frivolous 3♥ there then it has a direct knock-on effect to which hands can rebid 3♦ in the first place. I think a good general rule is for it to be on anytime slam interest is possible for a major and anytime slam interest has explicitly been shown for a minor but for the absentminded it is reasonable to play always on for majors and always off for minors.

In any case, a better question for you is what a 4♥ rebid from Opener would have been. I seem to recall Ken (Rexford, not Berg) a very long time ago suggesting this should be a Bluhmer (ie a raise with weak hearts) - any other sensible suggestions?

[Winstonm]

 Gilithin, on 2021-July-16, 12:43, said:

Well that is why I specifically avoided the auction 1♦ - 2♣ - 3♦, which is somewhat more controversial. If you play Frivolous 3♥ there then it has a direct knock-on effect to which hands can rebid 3♦ in the first place. I think a good general rule is for it to be on anytime slam interest is possible for a major and anytime slam interest has explicitly been shown for a minor but for the absentminded it is reasonable to play always on for majors and always off for minors.

In any case, a better question for you is what a 4♥ rebid from Opener would have been. I seem to recall Ken (Rexford, not Berg) a very long time ago suggesting this should be a Bluhmer (ie a raise with weak hearts) - any other sensible suggestions?

In a frivilous sequence, it makes better sense to me to make it a cue bid of trumps - however you would like to use it but some kind of concentrated values, 2 of top 3, 3 of top 4, AKQ or KQJ or whatever. If I understand your question correctly.

I suggest this because a hand with weakish trumps could cue and if partner did not raise to game (showing good trump) sign off. One of the hardest slams to reach is when there is a question about trump quality.

[Winstonm]

 jillybean, on 2021-July-16, 12:08, said:

I do see your point and it does make sense if you can trust your partner. 1H-2C-3H-4H is the type of auction I am trying to avoid, opener has shown a strong hand and responders 2C is unlimited. Without a cue, or non-serious 3nt I'm often compelled to bid on over game, sometimes it works, other times 5H-1 when we should have stopped in game. I am trying to cater for forgets and reluctance to cooperate in a cue bidding auction and of course, no matter what approach we take, I can't bid both hands. As mentioned before, I have to focus on bidding my hand expertly.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Quote

if you can trust your partner.

If you don't trust your partner, why are you playing?