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4-4 majors WTP? I lucked out

#1 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 16:55



IMPs scoring. What do you do here? (edit: just before it asks, the basic system is 2/1 5cM 15-17 NT)

I doubled and partner bid 4C (of course he did), now what?
Wayne Somerville
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#2 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 17:39

View Postmanudude03, on 2021-July-13, 16:55, said:

I doubled and partner bid 4C (of course he did), now what?


Wow, I didn't see partner bidding 4. I guess partner didn't have a diamond stopper to bid 3NT. :)
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 18:00

Have to bid 4NT, on a good day partner will take it as showing this hand. But I am afraid we are going to end up in 6NT anyway. It probably won't make but maybe partner's clubs are good for six or seven tricks.

I am not sure if I could have done better by not doubling, by the way. If a quantitative 4NT was available on the previous round, I suppose at least it wouldn be partner's fault if we ended up in the wrong contract :)
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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 20:08

I'm just gonna bid 6N. Not gonna be possible to have an intelligent auction here, and I'm not going to make the opponents life any easier.
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#5 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-July-13, 20:56

I guess it all depends what sort of partner you have: regular, experienced or not. have you discussed what X or alternate 4 mean here, or X followed by 4, or X followed by 4NT? can you pass easily and partner balances? (does that make it any easier? I think not.) I would have gone with X the same as you followed by 4 (extra values) after 4 but I am sure that is not the right bid. 4NT probably is if partner sees it as quantitative 4NT not rkcb.

Good hand to post. I doubt there is a easy solution and it is just guess where best place to be. partner could have several different hand types. pre-empts sometimes work and you are fixed. this hand looks like one.
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#6 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 02:03

I play direct 4NT is quantitative, direct 4 is both majors (and direct 4 is forcing, showing strong club support). X then 4 depends on partner's bid - if 3M it shows a control (and denies lower controls), if 3NT it shows a hand with both majors, too strong or shapely for direct 4 (which partner may overrule with long clubs) and invites partner to consider 6M with 3-card support and any non-minimum, over 4 it shows either the previous option or a strong balanced hand with one or both majors and worth probing for 6. X then 4NT does not exist.

So I'll bid a 4NT and say a quick prayer. With a non-minimum partner will bid 5M with a 4-card suit over 4NT, so we will land on our feet in 6M. 6NT is quite far away, I would really like to have a second club. 3NT is simply not enough on this hand.
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 07:10

ManUDude03 'IMPs scoring. What do you do here? (edit: just before it asks, the basic system is 2/1 5cM 15-17 NT) I doubled and partner bid 4C (of course he did), now what?'
++++++++++++++++++++
Hard choice. But partner knows you might hold a hand like this. Now I rank...
1. 4 = UCB attempt to show extras.
2. 4N = NAT but likely to be interpreted as RKC.
3. 6N = NAT over-optimistic.

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#8 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 08:52

This hand is really not as good as it seems with its non-fit and lack of aces. The expected diamond distribution is 7411, so initially I expect 5431 from partner but with the club rebid that changes to 3316. And it is possible partner opened with only a single ace.

My thinking is that 3N is sufficient and a major Moysian might have been our best contract.

Being propelled by a preempt to a hopeless slam is worse than missing slam . The real question is how would the auction have gone without the preempt and with partner making repeated minimum club rebids?
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 10:31

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-July-14, 02:03, said:

I play direct 4NT is quantitative, direct 4 is both majors (and direct 4 is forcing, showing strong club support). X then 4 depends on partner's bid - if 3M it shows a control (and denies lower controls), if 3NT it shows a hand with both majors, too strong or shapely for direct 4 (which partner may overrule with long clubs) and invites partner to consider 6M with 3-card support and any non-minimum, over 4 it shows either the previous option or a strong balanced hand with one or both majors and worth probing for 6. X then 4NT does not exist.

So I'll bid a 4NT and say a quick prayer. With a non-minimum partner will bid 5M with a 4-card suit over 4NT, so we will land on our feet in 6M. 6NT is quite far away, I would really like to have a second club. 3NT is simply not enough on this hand.




this is a horrible problem…one of the worst I’ve ever seen


At the table I’d be struggling to make a call over 3D in tempo, other than the ‘obvious’ double.

At mps I like to think I’d pass in tempo. My reasoning, and I’ll look at how transferable this is to imps, would be:

1. I think it very likely that we have a far better spot than defending 3D, especially undoubled, but

2. I have no idea what that spot…or those spots….is/are nor how we get there, including getting the level right

3. If partner can reopen, I can drive to some slam with a high degree of confidence that it will have play

4. It’s only a board. I may get it back on the next hand just by making an overtrick.



Now for imps:

Say I make the obvious double


Over 3H, I have to worry about spades and clubs, in terms of slam. QJx Axxx xx KQJxx can fail in 5H even with a 3-2 break…..they may be cross-ruffing in the pointed suits….and has no play for six.

But Ax Axxx x Axxxxx is a pretty good slam and make his hearts A10xx and its even better….on a really good day one might make grand.

I suppose we bid 4D over 3H and trust partner to do the right thing (with my second hand, he should definitely do something more than 4H, given his controls)

Over 3S, I could keycard, but Jxxx Axx x AQJxx would not be a great dummy in 5S while AQ10x Axx x QJxxx makes for a decent slam

And of course there is the dreaded 4C, which happens.

Over 4M, I’m happy to keycard even though there’s no guarantee of a happy ending, given that breaks may be foul.

Back to 4C…..I probably have as many agreements in one of my two partnerships as any other regular poster has in their strongest partnership, but I’m not at all sure that we’d be on the same page with a 4N call here. I think it ‘should’ be natural but it’s asking a lot of partner to pass it.

The more I think about it, the more I like pass, but at the table it would take me so long to work that out that my partner would be barred unless a pass out was not a logical alternative….and at the 3-level, if he is short in, say, spades, he needs a GOOD hand for that to be the case.

So I expect that I’d double. Then over 4C, I’d bid a smooth 4N and await partner’s next call with trepidation.
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#10 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 12:57

I'd be shocked if

total tricks > total trumps

on this deal,mainly because the KQ are likely of no use on offence and there doesn't seem to be (what Larry Cohen calls) positive adjustment factors to fully compensate for that.

So e.g. if partner has 3415 shape and we can make at least 12 tricks in hearts, opps should by LoTT not be able to make more than 4 tricks in diamonds.

So I agree with mikeh that pass (in tempo) is likely the winning call if we can trust partner to reopen on any minimum hand with 0-1 diamonds.
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#11 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-July-14, 13:44

View Postmikeh, on 2021-July-14, 10:31, said:

this is a horrible problem…one of the worst I’ve ever seen

[...]

At the table I’d be struggling to make a call over 3D in tempo, other than the ‘obvious’ double.
Back to 4C…..I probably have as many agreements in one of my two partnerships as any other regular poster has in their strongest partnership, but I’m not at all sure that we’d be on the same page with a 4N call here. I think it ‘should’ be natural but it’s asking a lot of partner to pass it.

The more I think about it, the more I like pass, but at the table it would take me so long to work that out that my partner would be barred unless a pass out was not a logical alternative….and at the 3-level, if he is short in, say, spades, he needs a GOOD hand for that to be the case.

So I expect that I’d double. Then over 4C, I’d bid a smooth 4N and await partner’s next call with trepidation.
Completely fair. In my partnership we have a lot of situations where 4NT is quantitative, so for us this is not as much of a freak auction as it may be for others. This doesn't really have anything to do with our total numbers of agreements, just a particular one of 4NT NF if a whole host of lower level forcing calls are available. It is 'obvious' that partner may rebid 4 over a double and that we are then in trouble. I'm also fine with taking a minute or so to think about my bid, I hope that's not unethical. I would never find the pass, even with weeks to study the auction and possible distributions.
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#12 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2021-July-16, 08:42

View Postmanudude03, on 2021-July-13, 16:55, said:

I doubled and partner bid 4C (of course he did), now what?

With a strong partner, I think it is after 4 clear that 4 should agree clubs with slam interest and 4NT should be natural. Here 4NT stands out as an easy call.

With an intermediate partner I would expect them to take 4NT as ace/kc-asking, so 4 is surely just a general cue asking for more information. Now I think I will try 4 and hope partner can bid a 3 card major so we at least reach a sensible spot.

With a purely social partner, 4NT is clearly asking and 4 risks a pass so I think the best chance at this point is to treat the hand as 4531 and bid 4. This could easily end badly so perhaps I should have thought about it more on the previous round and found Mike's Pass over 3.

I am not convinced this is a problem with a single solution that applies to every pair.

Incidentally, that looks like a very entertaining session with several interesting hands. Perhaps you might consider posting, inter alia, Hand 7 from the other table (after Multi-2 opening) as well?
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#13 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2021-July-16, 13:05

In general, I'm not a fan of hands where it's basically hope partner has a certain card, but I just posted that one anyway. As for this board, I ended up bidding 4NT hoping it was natural, but partner took it as KC. There is actually an interesting point in the play too when West returns a spade at trick 3. The cards are such that it doesn't matter if you play them to have blown a potential spade trick. I was thinking of a possible triple squeeze at the time, but would have required West to have 14 cards. Lucky then that the clubs broke 3-3.


Wayne Somerville
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