BBO Discussion Forums: It's the simple things - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

It's the simple things partner responds 2S - 5-9 HCP and 3 trumps

Poll: Your call (12 member(s) have cast votes)

South should?

  1. Pass (1 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  2. 3S (1 votes [8.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.33%

  3. 4S (2 votes [16.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  4. Anything else (8 votes [66.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,038
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2022-April-11, 00:28

What's the best call for South here.

non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
1

#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,061
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2022-April-11, 02:27

Just about worth a 3 long suit GT, the two major suit kings give good chances, 2 major jacks and the diamond ace also, particularly if he has a doubleton heart, Kx he will now know is gold dust
2

#3 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,146
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2022-April-11, 02:38

I play short suit trials, so 3 looks right. You could blast 4, especially if playing help suit trials (3 eats up the bidding space and partner will discount good diamond values. And partner can't pass the ball back to you over 3, because there are no steps left). I've never much liked long suit trials over help suit trials.

I don't know what 3 means here when I have 2NT available as a 'HCP' game try. I keep insisting it is descriptive/preemptive because it is in other situations, but you don't need the bid on this auction. Maybe 3 and 2NT should both be some kind of non-short-suit game try.

With a pickup partner I'd probably blast 4 at IMPs.
1

#4 User is offline   ali quarg 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 39
  • Joined: 2020-August-14
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-April-11, 04:22

I play 3-way game tries so
2NT - reverse help suit game try
3 - trump suit game try
3 - short suit game try
0

#5 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 727
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-April-11, 04:27

I would bid 3 here. That is the suit you need help. I would not bid 3 as if partner then bids 4 the opponents could not lead that suit imo. If you bid 3 the ops. do not know that you have AQ(98) and they might make an attacking lead of a into your tenace. Though partner is limited and with the wrong cards 4 will not make, though with >7 playing tricks in your own hand, you do not need much from partner to find game.
1

#6 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,606
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2022-April-11, 05:01

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-April-11, 02:38, said:

I play short suit trials, so 3 looks right. You could blast 4, especially if playing help suit trials (3 eats up the bidding space and partner will discount good diamond values. And partner can't pass the ball back to you over 3, because there are no steps left). I've never much liked long suit trials over help suit trials.

Good point. The problem with long suit trials is that sometimes you have two long side suits. You rarely have two singletons (and if you have, blasting 4 if too weak for a slam try would almost always be reasonable).

As for short suit trials, I think they are a bit more useful when used by responder. If partner has xxxx in clubs he will be enthusiast about a short suit trial, but we could become short in trumps if we get a forcing defense.

An alternative is 2NT asking for a short suit trial. That also gives less away about declarer's hand.

A case for a long suit trial here is that sometimes 4 is a better contract than 4.
This whole 'my partner paused so now I must trash the hand' attitude never worked for me --- DavidKok
2

#7 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,146
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2022-April-11, 05:12

One other significant drawback of help suit trials (and, to a lesser extent, of long suit trials) is that if partner rejects the invitation you have just told the opponents that neither side can cover losers in a side suit, which can lead to some hilarious 3-1 vs 4= swings.
A somewhat popular treatment over 2NT on this auction is "bid the lowest suit in which you would accept a help suit trial, if any". That way you can have your cake and eat it too. Alternatively, you can have responder show shortness instead.
1

#8 User is offline   Douglas43 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 567
  • Joined: 2020-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Isle of Man
  • Interests:Walking, boring my wife with bridge stories

Posted 2022-April-11, 06:31

Five loser hand. 4.

But bear in mind I usually play 4cM and a raise is based on 4 cards about 75% of the time.
0

#9 User is online   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,077
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2022-April-11, 08:44

Nobody asked the form of scoring or the vulnerability.

Also we don’t know the methods, but I’m assuming GIB, given that the OP seems to play against robots rather than playing bridge. I have no clue how robots bid these but if forced to guess would think ‘natural’ game tries.

At imps, red, I just bid 4S. Defence is the toughest part of the game and the opening lead on 1S 2S 4S is one of the more difficult auctions against which to lead absent a nice sequence

If I were making a try, absent specialized methods, it would be 3D. I want to be in game opposite an average 2S with diamond help, plus if he has a max, no help in diamonds, but help in hearts, he can bid 3H.

That’s an important point since we often, as helene noted, have two suits in which we want help. Always bid the cheapest, to allow partner to show or deny help in the higher should responder lack help in the cheaper.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
3

#10 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,106
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2022-April-11, 11:59

No - GiB claims to play Reverse Kokish (next step is unspecified shortness, everything else is help suit, 2N substituting for spades) game tries. However, its judgement is nonexistent. As far as I can tell, no matter what your game try, it accepts with a max in point count and rejects with a min. (When it makes a Kokish game try, the info can be useful.)
0

#11 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,903
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-April-11, 14:23

View Postakwoo, on 2022-April-11, 11:59, said:

However, its judgement is nonexistent. As far as I can tell, no matter what your game try, it accepts with a max in point count and rejects with a min.

Hiding my response just so that I don't derail the thread into a GIB discussion too much:
Spoiler

0

#12 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,038
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2022-April-11, 15:50

View Postmikeh, on 2022-April-11, 08:44, said:

Nobody asked the form of scoring or the vulnerability.

Also we don't know the methods, but I'm assuming GIB, given that the OP seems to play against robots rather than playing bridge. I have no clue how robots bid these but if forced to guess would think 'natural' game tries.

At imps, red, I just bid 4S. Defence is the toughest part of the game and the opening lead on 1S 2S 4S is one of the more difficult auctions against which to lead absent a nice sequence

If I were making a try, absent specialized methods, it would be 3D. I want to be in game opposite an average 2S with diamond help, plus if he has a max, no help in diamonds, but help in hearts, he can bid 3H.

That's an important point since we often, as helene noted, have two suits in which we want help. Always bid the cheapest, to allow partner to show or deny help in the higher should responder lack help in the cheaper.

Apologies for that.
I post my robot shenanigans in the robot section.
When I'm playing Bridge I post in the human section.
I was "2S" on this hand.
This hand came from one of the free tournaments on BBO (MP) playing a fairly simple strong NT system with a regular (-ish) partner.



non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
0

#13 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,903
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2022-April-11, 18:46

View Postpilowsky, on 2022-April-11, 15:50, said:

playing a fairly simple strong NT system with a regular (-ish) partner.

If you have no agreements on how you play game tries, there's no right or wrong answer. Write off this board, and make some solid agreements for next time.

I'm a fan of 2NT asking partner for a game try as per a couple of other posters above.
2

#14 User is offline   pilowsky 

  • pilowsky
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,038
  • Joined: 2019-October-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2022-April-11, 19:13

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-April-11, 18:46, said:

If you have no agreements on how you play game tries, there's no right or wrong answer. Write off this board, and make some solid agreements for next time.

That seems to be the best conclusion to draw.
A quick simulation suggests that 4S is right here 40-70% of the time depending on information that would be obtained with better methods/solid agreements.


non est deus ex machina; även maskiner behöver lite kärlek.
0

#15 User is offline   thepossum 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,584
  • Joined: 2018-July-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 2022-April-11, 22:54

Maybe I'm in the wrong place again but I would probably save time and bid 4 spades :)
1

#16 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2022-May-03, 01:42

pilowsky 'What's the best call for South here?'
+++++++++++++++++++
Charles Outred advocates minimal information leakage. e.g. you might agree...
- 4 = (Landy game try). Just boot game as thePossum advocates. on most hands give nothing away.
- 3 = S/O. No interest.
- 2N = (Cheapest bid by opener) "general purpose" try. Then a new suit by responder= game trial-bid.
- 3// =(Other new suit rebid by opener) Slam-try.
- 3N = NAT BAL suggestion.
- 4// =(New suit jump rebid by opener). SPLSlam-try.

1

#17 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,842
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2022-May-06, 07:49

I bid 3H. I suppose partner might rebid 3NT and I will have to think about that but usually he will bid 3S (I pass) or 4S (I pass) or 4H (I pass). W/o discussion 3H shows hearts.

Added: And really I do not need to think much if pard bids 3NT over my 3H. I'm not cruel, we go to 4S if by any chance he opts for NT. Not likely he would.
Ken
1

#18 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2022-May-10, 16:05


Long suit tries sometimes work better.
Here, 6, on the 4-4 fit, is a good contract, but, in , 5 is the limit.

1

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users