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Illegal 1 level opening?

#21 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2022-May-06, 08:58

This "useful holding yet difficult to show after a pass" answer reminds me of all the people who make off-shape takeout doubles because "I have opening strength, I have to do something". They're very rarely what I consider good players.

#22 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-May-06, 12:31

You don't need a regulation "for the use of an illegal agreement". Just follow the law.
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#23 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-May-06, 12:33

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-06, 12:31, said:

You don't need a regulation "for the use of an illegal agreement". Just follow the law.


But can you be using an illegal agreement if you never made (or implicitly established by precedent) one?
The law doesn't say no, but I'm not sure it needs to.
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#24 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-May-06, 12:52

If you don't have an agreement, you don't have an illegal agreement. Except in the ACBL, where apparently you can have an agreement even if you don't have one. :(
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#25 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2022-May-07, 05:49

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-06, 12:31, said:

You don't need a regulation "for the use of an illegal agreement". Just follow the law.

I suspect that Pescetom's concern is regulation that contrives infractions but are rubbish considering (lack of)remedy. For instance, the law provides remedies for insufficient calls but not calls that satisfy law but where by regulation agreement is forbidden to the call. I say to allow the market for ideas to devour the market of bad ideas- and take no prisoners.
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#26 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-May-07, 10:14

View Postaxman, on 2022-May-07, 05:49, said:

I suspect that Pescetom's concern is regulation that contrives infractions but are rubbish considering (lack of)remedy. For instance, the law provides remedies for insufficient calls but not calls that satisfy law but where by regulation agreement is forbidden to the call. I say to allow the market for ideas to devour the market of bad ideas- and take no prisoners.

Law 40B4: When a side is damaged by an opponent’s use of a special partnership understanding that does not comply with the regulations governing the tournament the score shall be adjusted. A side in breach of those regulations may be subject to a procedural penalty.

So when a player makes a call and it turns out the agreed meaning of that call is forbidden by regulation, if the director is called before the hand is played out he allows the bidding and play to continue, and if the NOS is damaged (which cannot of course be determined until the play is completed) he adjusts the score. He may also issue a procedural penalty, whether or not the NOS are damaged.
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#27 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2022-May-07, 11:13

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-07, 10:14, said:

Law 40B4: When a side is damaged by an opponent’s use of a special partnership understanding that does not comply with the regulations governing the tournament the score shall be adjusted. A side in breach of those regulations may be subject to a procedural penalty.

So when a player makes a call and it turns out the agreed meaning of that call is forbidden by regulation, if the director is called before the hand is played out he allows the bidding and play to continue, and if the NOS is damaged (which cannot of course be determined until the play is completed) he adjusts the score. He may also issue a procedural penalty, whether or not the NOS are damaged.

The law does not define what "a side is damaged by an opponent’s use...that does not comply with the regulations governing..." is. No predicate damage, no remedy.
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#28 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-May-07, 15:06

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-07, 10:14, said:

Law 40B4: When a side is damaged by an opponent’s use of a special partnership understanding that does not comply with the regulations governing the tournament the score shall be adjusted. A side in breach of those regulations may be subject to a procedural penalty.

So when a player makes a call and it turns out the agreed meaning of that call is forbidden by regulation, if the director is called before the hand is played out he allows the bidding and play to continue, and if the NOS is damaged (which cannot of course be determined until the play is completed) he adjusts the score. He may also issue a procedural penalty, whether or not the NOS are damaged.


I'm comfortable with that. But the agreed (by any sense of the word that I understand) meaning of this call was 5+ cards 11+ HCP which is far from forbidden. So why should the Director adjust under our regulations?
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#29 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-May-07, 18:58

View Postaxman, on 2022-May-07, 11:13, said:

The law does not define what "a side is damaged by an opponent’s use...that does not comply with the regulations governing..." is. No predicate damage, no remedy.

Nonsense.

Law 12B1, in part: Damage exists when, because of an infraction, an innocent side obtains a table result less favorable than would have been the expectation had the infraction not occurred.
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#30 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2022-May-08, 05:22

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-07, 18:58, said:

Nonsense.

Law 12B1, in part: Damage exists when, because of an infraction, an innocent side obtains a table result less favorable than would have been the expectation had the infraction not occurred.

Saying that something exists does not describe that something.

A hippograph exists when, because of an infraction, an innocent side obtains a table result less favorable than would have been the expectation had the infraction not occurred.

The above does not describe a hippograph, merely that it exists when the condition exists. Many would say such is not particularly useful nor helpful.
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#31 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-May-08, 13:45

The point is that damage must exist before the director can adjust the score.
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#32 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2022-May-09, 09:03

However, they can penalize for violation of regulations.

The ACBL chooses not to except in extreme or willfully repeated occasions.

Given the hard line they have chosen to take on "evidence of implied partnership understanding" it is perhaps correct to do so.

Given the "incredibly well publicised" way they have chosen to legalize certain "implied partnership understandings" that surprised certain well-connected players when they found out that it wasn't legal, it is also perhaps correct to do so for violations not expected by said well-connected players.

I could hardly comment on that, could I.
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#33 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-May-09, 15:35

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-08, 13:45, said:

The point is that damage must exist before the director can adjust the score.


In this case there was clearly no damage, without the 1 bid LHO would have opened 1NT and they would find at least the same score, possibly 2+1.
But the question remains whether there was an infraction.
I thought not, a more experienced TD thought so (but failed to convince me).
Our regulations are in the previous posts.
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#34 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2022-May-10, 11:21

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-May-08, 13:45, said:

The point is that damage must exist before the director can adjust the score.


The director has the power to impose a procedural penalty when damage is unclear. IMO the director should usually impose a procedural penalty to encourage compliance with the rules.
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#35 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-May-10, 17:18

I agree, mostly, Nigel, although I would add that it depends on the wording of the rule wrt 'does', 'should', 'shall', 'must', etc. Law 40B4 is no help here, so the TD would have to look at the wording of the regulation. 'May not' or 'must not' would garner a PP 'more often than not'. In theory at least.
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#36 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2022-June-27, 10:37

to me all you can do is file it with a recorder if possible, or use double dummy solver to look up all hands
that this pair has played in the last several months to see if this is a regular occurrence....but with out
any relative information it goes down as a psyche.
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#37 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-June-28, 02:00

Before you can rule it a psych you have to know what the actual agreement is, whether the hand is a gross deviation from that agreement, and whether the gross deviation was deliberate.
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#38 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-June-28, 14:41

View Postblackshoe, on 2022-June-28, 02:00, said:

Before you can rule it a psych you have to know what the actual agreement is, whether the hand is a gross deviation from that agreement, and whether the gross deviation was deliberate.


The answers to questions 1 and 3 are in the thread, answer 2 is in your head and worth knowing :)
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#39 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2022-June-28, 19:15

So when you rule it a psych, you specify what those answers are. You don't just say "it's a psych."
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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