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What does this show ?

#21 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 08:19

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-May-23, 05:44, said:

And was 2NT the par? Or did partner bid on?


We bid and made 3N (4 is best). I only had a 17 count, partner had 6 and 6 hearts.

The other mess we had is the question as to whether system was on over 2N. If I double "strong NT+" it's not clear we bid game as my AQ tight opposite his Kxxxxx don't look that promising from either side, we might play 3
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#22 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 10:41

View PostCyberyeti, on 2022-May-22, 14:15, said:

Your agreements.

Double of 2 would simply show clubs, one 2 or 3 suited.


Maybe double should show "clubs or any very strong hand"?
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#23 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 11:06

View PostDavidKok, on 2022-May-23, 05:44, said:

To me this is a matter of probabilities and expected IMPs. If they had opened 2NT and bid 3, a lead-directing double against their likely 3NT or 4M is probably the best use of the double (and this is the way I play it). It does not suggest strength or willingness to play 4 or 5, because those are very uncommon over a strong 2NT.
Over (1NT)-P-(2*)-? on the other hand, the hand might belong to either side, competing at the 3-level (or even the 2-level over their possible diamond or heart fit) is a live possibility. Double partscore swings do add up at 6 IMPs at a time. Also lead-directing doubles are always a parlay bet of sorts - the lead has to set their contract, the lead partner would naturally have made has to not set their contract, and the opponents have to be foolhardy enough to bid on anyway before you show a good profit. Of course you also profit if a lead-directing double keeps them out of a game (especially if it would have made), but not only is this rare, my partner tends to find the killing leads on these auctions even without the double. So the average IMPs (or matchpoints, for that matter) swung with lead-directing doubles is low. I think assigning a different meaning to doubles in many situations like this is helpful.

In fact, the case is even stronger than I presented above. As mikeh pointed out if we have a hand suitable for clubs the chance is greater that the opponents belong in a suit contract and that our clubs won't take that many tricks. The double gives the opponents extra bidding space to explore this (I play: a bid by opener shows a club stopper and the meaning as if we were not interrupted, redouble is for blood and pass denies a club stopper, responder can repeat the Stayman ask with a redouble). Both of these are much less of a concern if double shows values/cards, and doubler's partner is likely to pull it.


I can see your points but I disagree that after 1NT - (P) - 2C (Stayman) the hand may belong to either side. Almost all the time in this situation the opponents have game invitational or game values so you are not buying the partscore, and the probability that you have "cards" (what qualifies as cards?) after such an auction is low (and if you do have cards, partner probably has a near bust, depending on the meaning of "cards"). In my experience Garbage Stayman is very rare.

I am aware I play in very different fields than MikeH so I can accept his/your argument could easily be true in the upper echelons of the game.
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#24 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 11:11

View PostTramticket, on 2022-May-23, 10:41, said:

Maybe double should show "clubs or any very strong hand"?

In my limited experience with these two way bids, the cost when partner guesses wrong is too much compared to the benefit. It reminds me of hearing that Zia and Rosenberg briefly played that a competitive double of a suit bid and raised by the opps was either penalty or takeout….partner was to look at his holding in that suit. If short, penalty. If, say, 3 cards,takeout.

They apparently dropped the method after a few hands where the opps had undisclosed extra length, so both Zia and Rosenberg were short😀
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#25 User is offline   bluenikki 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 12:15

View PostAL78, on 2022-May-23, 11:06, said:

In my experience Garbage Stayman is very rare.



Regardless of what Stayman variant you say you are playing, you are certainly responding 2 when dealt a weak hand shaped 3=4=5=1, right? And there is nothing rare about that.

(Provided opener does not systemically rebid 2NT to show both majors! Stayman himself used the 2NT rebid to show full max with strong 5+ .)
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#26 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 13:53

View Postbluenikki, on 2022-May-23, 12:15, said:

Regardless of what Stayman variant you say you are playing, you are certainly responding 2 when dealt a weak hand shaped 3=4=5=1, right? And there is nothing rare about that.

(Provided opener does not systemically rebid 2NT to show both majors! Stayman himself used the 2NT rebid to show full max with strong 5+ .)


Of course, in this case I think a 4342 heap
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#27 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2022-May-24, 08:46

I too play 1NT - 2 X as showing clubs.

If it's IMPs then there is not much point taking a big risk to fight for a part-score, so 2NT should be a really strong hand, say 19-21 that hopes to bid and make 3NT.

If it's pairs, then according to vulnerability I suppose might be weaker. But it's not clear why I would not double 2 for takeout.
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#28 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-24, 10:14

View PostDouglas43, on 2022-May-24, 08:46, said:

I too play 1NT - 2 X as showing clubs.

If it's IMPs then there is not much point taking a big risk to fight for a part-score, so 2NT should be a really strong hand, say 19-21 that hopes to bid and make 3NT.

If it's pairs, then according to vulnerability I suppose might be weaker. But it's not clear why I would not double 2 for takeout.


Doubling 2 for T/o doesn't look good with your 3244 shape on this hand
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#29 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-May-24, 13:20

View Postbluenikki, on 2022-May-23, 12:15, said:

Regardless of what Stayman variant you say you are playing, you are certainly responding 2 when dealt a weak hand shaped 3=4=5=1, right? And there is nothing rare about that.


Correct, and it is rare. I can't remember the last time I or any of my opponents held such a hand and used Stayman after their partner had opened 1NT. It is like Lebensohl* or Jacoby 2NT** or RKCB or strong jump shifts, I can count the number of times they come up for my partner or me in a year on the fingers of one hand.

*The reason why one or two people I have partnered occasionally have responded less than enthusiastically to my enquiry as to whether they play Lebensohl is because it comes up so infrequently, they have never had a chance to learn it properly.

**I saw a modified version of this linked from a post on here a while ago, but I've never taken the time to learn it because it doesn't come up often enough for it to stick in the mind, and repetition is needed to learn conventions and systems.
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#30 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-24, 13:55

View PostAL78, on 2022-May-24, 13:20, said:

Correct, and it is rare. I can't remember the last time I or any of my opponents held such a hand and used Stayman after their partner had opened 1NT. It is like Lebensohl* or Jacoby 2NT** or RKCB or strong jump shifts, I can count the number of times they come up for my partner or me in a year on the fingers of one hand.

*The reason why one or two people I have partnered occasionally have responded less than enthusiastically to my enquiry as to whether they play Lebensohl is because it comes up so infrequently, they have never had a chance to learn it properly.

**I saw a modified version of this linked from a post on here a while ago, but I've never taken the time to learn it because it doesn't come up often enough for it to stick in the mind, and repetition is needed to learn conventions and systems.


Lebensohl comes up frequently if you use it in all the places it can be used. It is not limited to 1N auctions.
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