[clons]

---

My partner and I were playing some practice hands for 1M open with 2/1 response and came across this hand. We deliberated on the proper bidding and landed on the above. I will explain our thinking:

N - 1H (13+, 5H)
S - 2C (GF, 3+C)...we believed that skipping 1S was acceptable since Partner had hearts support and confirming GF was more important
N - 2H (6+H, nothing about points)
S - 3H (16+ pts, 3H support)...with 13-15 pts, would just jump to 4H
N - 4C (1st or 2nd rnd control)
S - 4D (1st or 2nd rnd control)
N - 4S (1st or 2nd rnd control in both hearts and spades)
S - 4NT (1430)
N - 5C (1 or 4)
S - 7H ...must be 4 due to cuebids

As mentioned it is a practice hand working through our system, hoping some experts can shed some light on if our thinking and offer suggestions for improved thinking or bidding system.

Thanks in advance for the support!

[Stephen Tu]

So there a bunch of style things you can read up on, both in this forum and bridgewinners. I would suggest search terms in google including "fast arrival" vs "picture jumps", and "non-serious 3nt" vs "serious 3nt" for tools a fair # of experts incorporate in their system.

1. First response. I think 2c holding 3cd heart support is the preferred bid by most these days as 1h-1s auctions are hard to deal with, and these days most will bid 1h-2c-2s without needing extras so you don't have to worry about missing potentially better spade fits. So agree here.

2. 2H promising 6. There is considerable difference of opinion here. Some do actually promise 6, but then what do you with a hand like AKJ KJxxx xx xxx? 2nt on 2 small diamonds is unattractive. Raising on 3cds small cards and a min is also unattractive. That's why probably more people have 2H *not* promise 6, because you need a "catchall" bid for hands flawed for other actions. This allows your other higher bids to be better defined, 2nt can promise actual stoppers in the unbids, raising the minor can promise extra values. You might have to bid hearts a 3rd time to show 6 (sometimes probe with 3m to look for doubleton support) playing this style. A possible alternative is to play the "Schuler shift" using a 2nt rebid to show a 6+ heart suit.


3. 1h-2c-2h-? So you play "fast arrival", where 4h shows a weaker hand than 3H. Most theorists don't particularly like fast arrival, because partner is unlimited. Jumping to 4H might stymie them from eliciting a cue from you. Instead they play "picture jumps" where jumping to 4H shows concentrated club/heart values, with no control in spades/diamonds, as a descriptive bid, and just bid 3H which doesn't show or deny extras (see below as to how to continue)

4. 1h-2c-2h-3h-? So if you are playing fast arrival, opener has a great hand and should want to be in slam already. He wants partner to keycard, rather than asking himself, since he can show all his cards quite easily since every single high card in his hand is shown by the response, and partner will be able to count tricks (other than the sixth heart if playing 2h as a catchall), whereas the converse won't be true. So certainly you cue bid. But people these days usually are systemic in their cue-bidding, up-the-line italian style is popular. So for most, cue-bidding 4c *denies* a spade control, since 3s was available. So cue 3S instead, planning on 4d later if partner cues clubs.

5. If *not* playing fast arrival as I recommend, then 1h-2c-2h-3h does *not* promise extras, but it doesn't deny them either. Now you run into the problem that both hands are unlimited, and might want to cue bid even with a min if the other hand is really good. But if cue-bids don't show any extras, you can run into the problem that no-one knows when to stop cue-bidding, and also you might reveal information unnecessarily to the defense when just stopping in game. Thus the popularity of "non-serious 3nt" aka "frivolous 3nt" aka "frivolous flag", the reverse treatment "serious 3nt", and when hearts are trumps some play "non-serious 3S" or "serious 3S". So for example, after 1h-2c-2h-3h, with my partners I play "non-serious 3S", and thus opener would bid 3S with most minimum hands, basically an artificial waiting bid, denying the absolute worst hands (which would just bid 4H). Bypassing 3S would show extras. On this hand opener is good, so would bid 3nt as a spade cue bid showing extras, then South is off to the races, and probably can just ask for keycards immediately. On lesser hands opener would bid 3S, and responder with a weaker hand would just bid 4H over 3S not having slam interest.

6. South should not jump to 7H over 5c. You don't know about the trump Q which is important. Confirm that first. You don't want to be in 40% grands needing hearts 2-2!

7. Bid 7nt not 7H. South can count 5 hearts, 4 spades 2 diamonds, 3 clubs for 14 tricks. Crucial to be in 7nt at MP, and at IMPs sometimes someone has HJTxx offside, but partner turns up with like DQ or 4 clubs or whatever and 7nt can be made but not 7H.

[akwoo]

I'm going to assume that your goal is to become a very good bridge player, not someone who is stuck at being good among intermediates.

Let me start from the end, South's 7H bid.

First of all, South cares about whether North has the Q♥ or not. Grand slam isn't really that good without the Q♥. Moreover, South can find out this information; after 5C, a bid of 5D from South asks North whether they have the Q♥. If North does not, North responds 5♥ (since North doesn't know that South has the missing keycard and you don't want to be in slam missing a keycard and the queen). If North does have the Q♥, they bid their cheapest king. (Some people play that 6♥ would mean Q♥ without a king and 5N means Q♥ and two kings; others reverse these.)

Let's fix this and assume that South bids 5D and North responds 6H (assuming they have agreed it shows Q♥ and no side king). Now South should bid 7N and not 7H.

Think about it - North is known to have
♠A
♥KQxxxx
♦A
♣A
and 4 other cards. No matter what those 4 other cards are, by looking at his hand and imagining how the play of the hand will go, South knows that 7N will make; they have 6 heart tricks (unless the hearts are 4-0, but that's only a 10% chance and 7H won't make in that case either), the AK of all the side suits, and the Q of spades, for 13 tricks without any ruffs.

7N is a better contract than 7H at matchpoints because it scores 10 more points. Even at IMP scoring, 7N is better because there is a small chance that West will have a non-heart void and be able to set 7H by ruffing the opening lead, whereas that cannot happen at 7N.

Before any more discussions, let me emphasize that improving your ability to picture partner's hand given the bidding and use that information to accurately predict how many tricks you are likely to take at various contracts will do more to improve your slam bidding (and to a lesser extent your game bidding) than anything you could learn about correctly using conventions. If you cannot picture as South that 7N is better than 7H, prioritize practicing that skill over learning more conventions.

And I have more to say about the earlier bidding but will save that for later instead of slowly making one long post.

[Stephen Tu]

akwoo, on 2022-August-09, 22:43, said:

First of all, South cares about whether North has the Q♥ or not. Grand slam isn't really that good without the Q♥. Moreover, South can find out this information; after 5C, a bid of 5D from South asks North whether they have the Q♥. If North does not, North responds 5♥ (since North doesn't know that South has the missing keycard and you don't want to be in slam missing a keycard and the queen). If North does have the Q♥, they bid their cheapest king. (Some people play that 6♥ would mean Q♥ without a king and 5N means Q♥ and two kings; others reverse these.)

IMO, if you want the most efficiency for the Q ask: (... 4nt-5c-5d-?), the best way to structure is as follows:
5H - no trump queen

5s - t queen, no outside K. This is more efficient than 6H showing this, because now asker (who might have the rest of Kings, or not care) has room for 5nt/6c/6d to ask about 3rd round control (Q/doubleton) of those suits (5nt asking about spades)

5nt/6c/6d - t queen, showing SK/CK/DK respectively, and denying kings of skipped suit(s). If asker needs a 2nd king then they can ask for the K they need.

[akwoo]

The next thing I should talk about is fast arrival. No advanced player would play the distinction between 3H and 4H (for South's second bid) as being about high card points. South should bid 3H if he can picture a well-fitting slightly-better-than-minimum hand that would make 6H, and bid 4H if he cannot. (It's also true that many experts play picture jumps rather than fast arrival here, but let's ignore that, and in practice, on many hands, fast arrival and picture jumps will make the same bid.)

For example, if South has
♠ xx
♥ Kxx
♦ xxx
♣ AKQxx
then South should bid 3H, because South can tell that 6H would make if North has
♠Axx
♥AQxxxx
♦x
♣xxx
which North might not even have opened with. Over 3H, control bidding should be able to uncover if this very lucky situation actually holds.

On the other hand, if South has
♠ QJx
♥ AQx
♦ QJx
♣ KJxx
then what 14 hcp hand from North makes slam worthwhile? I can't think of one. I think the minimum from North for a good slam (assuming not extreme distribution) would be something like
♠ Kxx
♥ Kxxxxx
♦ A
♣ AQx
Despite having 3 more hcp, the second South hand is certainly worse than the first after a 1H-2C-2H start to the auction. I probably would still bid 3H with this South hand, but I wouldn't argue with 4H here.

Once again, I emphasize that being about to picture possible hands for partner and determine what contracts they would make is a very valuable bridge skill.

[mw64ahw]

There are a few style questions that may be pertinent: to 2/1 continuations

• Is 1♥-2♦ 5+. If so then is 1♥-2♣ GF 2+♣ when 4342?
• As others have identified there are a number of ways to play subsequent to 2♣. I'm in the camp that shows a minimum hand first (a catchall) and shape 2nd or an Intermediate+ hand together with shape. It may be worth considering some of the other approaches
• The 3♥ bid is good with the point range OK for a semi-balanced hand, but you may need to reconsider for unbalanced/balanced hands if the 3♥ bid is still used as SI.
• With Italian cue-bidding after 3♥ you can use 3♠ to show the 1st/2nd round control.
• What does 3NT mean after 3♥? Some use as serious/frivolous. I use the bid to show a weak trump suit. Some pairs also switch the meaning of 3♠/3NT
• Is the 4♦ bid necessary to show a control? Either bid 4♥ to deny or move above to continue the slam investigation. Some use the bid as Last Train, but I'm not a fan and use it to show a ♦ void.
• There are other alternatives to 4NT RKCB. If d) is used then 4♠ as Kickback (keycard asking) or 4♠+ as Kickbo (keycard/control showing) are alternatives. I use the latter as it provides additional space to establish the presence of Kings/Queens etc. when looking for the grand.
• As others have identified; where is the Queen ask? Maybe the 2♥ bid promises 2+ of the top 3 honours?
• Also more considered control bidding after the keycard ask/show may land you in 7NT rather than 7♥

[TylerE]

Stop counting beans and actually evaluate your hands.

[DavidKok]

Stephen Tu, on 2022-August-09, 23:26, said:

IMO, if you want the most efficiency for the Q ask: (... 4nt-5c-5d-?), the best way to structure is as follows:
5H - no trump queen

5s - t queen, no outside K. This is more efficient than 6H showing this, because now asker (who might have the rest of Kings, or not care) has room for 5nt/6c/6d to ask about 3rd round control (Q/doubleton) of those suits (5nt asking about spades)

5nt/6c/6d - t queen, showing SK/CK/DK respectively, and denying kings of skipped suit(s). If asker needs a 2nd king then they can ask for the K they need.

There's room to be more efficient.

• 5♥ - no queen
  
• 5♠ - queen, precisely king of spades but not the other two, or precisely king of clubs and king of diamonds but not the king of spades.
  
• 5NT - queen, all or no kings
  
• 6♣ - queen, precisely king of clubs but not the other two, or precisely king of diamonds and king of spades but not the king of clubs.
  
• 6♦ - queen, precisely king of diamonds but not the other two, or precisely king of clubs and king of spades but not the king of diamonds.

As for the bidding and the question of the post: there's three notable mistakes, all already pointed out (bypassing 3♠, not asking for the queen of hearts, not bidding 7NT). There's a few system choices you could look into (e.g. frivolous NT, last train, more involved systems over 2♣, 2♥ not promising 6) but none of these are crucial. I understood the "(16+ pts, 3H support)" to be descriptive rather than prescriptive - i.e. playing strength, not Miltons. I don't see much wrong with it other than that I'd lower the bar quite a lot. If you include the aforementioned tools to your arsenal there are plenty of ways to hit the breaks after giving an initial positive answer, whereas if you just blast 4♥ you put partner on the spot. I think I'd bid 4♥ on maybe the weakest 10% of hands that support hearts on this auction. Also don't forget we have descriptive 3♠-4♦ available for showing heart support on both the first and second round, so 3♥ is actually quite descriptive.

Several posters, myself included, have taken this post as an open invitation to gush about their favourite methods. I'd be hesitant to take up most of these tools - your bidding is fine and your system is fine. Also I am very happy to not play some of the methods others have already suggested, including some of their suggested hand evaluation.

[Cyberyeti]

This is a very simple hand which partner and I not playing 2/1 bid 1♥-1♠-3♥-keycard ask-4+Q-7N and 7N is better than 7♥ as opener might have ♦AJx♣Ax instead of what he actually has allowing you a shot at making if all the hearts are offside (plus squeeze chances).

Yes the absolute glaring error is not checking up on the ♥Q, we use 5♥ as "no Q" 5N as "I have the Q and something else useful I haven't shown" with 6♥ as "Q and nothing else" and 5♠/6♣/6♦ as "Q and that king".

[mw64ahw]

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

There are a few style questions that may be pertinent: to 2/1 continuations

• Is 1♥-2♦ 5+. If so then is 1♥-2♣ GF 2+♣ when 4342?

Looking at the Ambra system the GF hands with 3 card support go through either 2♣ or 2♦ thus 3m is always guaranteed.

[thepossum]

All beyond me but I put it through a major Bridge program and its interesting which systems find 7NT and which don't

I would like to think that even my basic methods could have found one of the Grands, in a genuine tourney, occasionally, or on average

I seem to bid better when I don't overanalyse things

[helene_t]

Stephen Tu, on 2022-August-09, 22:21, said:

7. Bid 7nt not 7H. South can count 5 hearts, 4 spades 2 diamonds, 3 clubs for 14 tricks. Crucial to be in 7nt at MP, and at IMPs sometimes someone has HJTxx offside, but partner turns up with like DQ or 4 clubs or whatever and 7nt can be made but not 7H.

On the actual hand, if hearts are 4-0 offside there's still a (small) chance of making 7NT on a simple squeeze if only East guards diamonds. Or West discards diamonds by mistake.

Are there any better chances of making 7NT? I understand your point was about what South should do based on the information he had, not about the actual hand.

[pescetom]

Some replies from the Italian (Naples) school of control-bidding:

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

There are a few style questions that may be pertinent: to 2/1 continuations
1. Is 1♥-2♦ 5+. If so then is 1♥-2♣ GF 2+♣ when 4342?

Yes and Yes.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

2. As others have identified there are a number of ways to play subsequent to 2♣. I'm in the camp that shows a minimum hand first (a catchall) and shape 2nd or an Intermediate+ hand together with shape.
...

It doesn't seem to me that we do anything particular subsequent to 2♣ as opposed to (say) 2♦: a "raise" to 3♣ by opener promises 4 cards and a non-minimum hand.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

3. The 3♥ bid is good with the point range OK for a semi-balanced hand, but you may need to reconsider for unbalanced/balanced hands if the 3♥ bid is still used as SI.

For us, responder's rebid of 3♥ fixes trumps, shows slam interest and requests a control-bid.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

4. With Italian cue-bidding after 3♥ you can use 3♠ to show the 1st/2nd round control.

You not only can but must bid 3♠ if you have 1st or 2nd round control.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

5. What does 3NT mean after 3♥? Some use as serious/frivolous. I use the bid to show a weak trump suit. Some pairs also switch the meaning of 3♠/3NT.

Non-serious. It is technically better to switch, but no current partner is willing and it's a notorious forget trap.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

6. Is the 4♦ bid necessary to show a control? Either bid 4♥ to deny or move above to continue the slam investigation. Some use the bid as Last Train, but I'm not a fan and use it to show a ♦ void.

A first/second level control-bid just like any other.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

7. There are other alternatives to 4NT RKCB. If d) is used then 4♠ as Kickback (keycard asking) or 4♠+ as Kickbo (keycard/control showing) are alternatives. I use the latter as it provides additional space to establish the presence of Kings/Queens etc. when looking for the grand.

With beginners we always allow breakout from the control-bid sequence to 4NT RKCB, otherwise breakout is possible only by a player who has not yet made a control-bid, or not at all (4NT is always Turbo). Some national level players switch the 4 level to bid Turbo below 4NT in a manner analaguous to kickback for RKCB.

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

8. As others have identified; where is the Queen ask?

I play that 5NT in a control-bid sequence denies the Queen, which works fine when a grand is in the picture (often too high otherwise).

mw64ahw, on 2022-August-10, 02:03, said:

9. Also more considered control bidding after the keycard ask/show may land you in 7NT rather than 7♥.

Exactly, although it needs some care where partner may be bidding a shortage rather than honours (N might bid diamonds late in the sequence to show 3rd level control, for instance). But in this case it still should be easy to count 13+ tricks.

A fundamental style question you do not mention is "do we show controls that are already implicitly disclosed?". My own answer is Yes for controls that are implicit in the auction before control-bidding starts (except for a singleton already splintered) but No for controls that are implicit in the control-bidding sequence (because one continued after the other denied or because Turbo implies the Ace).

[akwoo]

Feedback from the OP about our comments? What are you looking for?

[thepossum]

Still reading with amazement, and continuing to overanalyse things

But how complicated do people want to make things and how many tricks do some people need to bid slams

I ran a few little sims and asking for Aces, Kings and the Queen of trumps works

I miss Standard Blackwood sometimes - or maybe a combination of 1430/0314 and Queen (if its South asking) ask followed by simple number of Kings (if North is asking)

After (how) many years trying my hardest to understand GiB 2/1 I can still get tripped up on the simplest of auctions

[akwoo]

thepossum, on 2022-August-12, 20:38, said:

Still reading with amazement, and continuing to overanalyse things

But how complicated do people want to make things and how many tricks do some people need to bid slams

I ran a few little sims and asking for Aces, Kings and the Queen of trumps works

I miss Standard Blackwood sometimes - or maybe a combination of 1430/0314 and Queen (if its South asking) ask followed by simple number of Kings (if North is asking)

After (how) many years trying my hardest to understand GiB 2/1 I can still get tripped up on the simplest of auctions

Most people play specific kings now rather than number of kings, and this hand illustrates why. If North suggests grand slam by asking for either number of kings or specific kings (whichever they're playing), South should just blast 7N, because there is no hand with which North would try for a grand where 7N doesn't make.

I had a partner with whom I played a very simple system. He had good bidding judgement and played the cards pretty well, but on average we were giving up at least 5% on bidding system alone. We could get lucky in a Sectional tournament, be giving up only 2% on the day because boards where more conventions helped didn't come up (or where we guessed right in the absence of conventions), and do pretty well, but we stood no chance at Open Pairs in a Regional.

(But I agree with you that South can just bid 4N after 2H on this hand; all that control bidding is pretty unnecessary here.)