[JSSMP1]

I was sitting south in the following auction:

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Most other tables played 4♠ from North and made it (although it goes down on perfect defense). On our table West played 4♣ and went down 1.
I'm uncertain how the bidding from North-South should go. I (south) was thinking as follows:
- My 1st decision point (after 1♠-X): I don't have 3-card spade support, not many points, so pass
- My 2nd decision point (after 2♠): Partner holds 6♠, we have an 8-card fit, but likely no game. No need to increase the level
- My 3rd decision point (after 3♠): Partner likely has 7♠ and just under 16 points. I have very bad points for him, especially if the A♦ is with West. Probably still no game, so pass.
- My 4th decision point (after their 4♣ and partner pass): They will likely go down, but I am not confident enough to X.

Should I have entered the bidding at some point? Should partner have bid 4♠ at some point? Or was our bidding good this way?

Curious to hear your opinions.

EDIT: This is matchpoints

[Cyberyeti]

I wonder how many people had an auction starting 1♣-4♠.

[mw64ahw]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-September-29, 07:03, said:

I wonder how many people had an auction starting 1♣-4♠.

You have the strength for 4♠, but I would treat that as pre-emptive so possibly missing out on a slam. Possibly a X followed by ♠s or an IJO

[mycroft]

You bid like you had

---

.

"Oh, 4♣ is probably going down, but partner clearly is already bidding my values. My entry, my doubleton trump, my intermediates,... I can't go on, what if it goes down too?"

Your partner has shown at least 7 spades and a very good hand to play in spades (and the auction says you have very few losers in clubs - frankly one more than I would expect). You have said nothing. You have a *very good hand* and have not supported with support (granted, you haven't had much of a chance). You think ♦KJT2 is "very bad points" - but even if west does have the ♦A, if either partner or East has the Q, (and partner has more than one diamond. very likely, given how short he must be in clubs) you still have an entry. If that entry is needed to play the ♠T for the critical finesse...

Now, if partner does bid your cards (for instance, bidding 1, 2, 3♠ on AKJ854 because he knows you won't balance with T9), then I can see it. But he shouldn't. If you trust partner to show their hand and then let you make a decision, he has shown the hand he has. And whether you put him in game before 4♣ (yes, I'm suggesting that's reasonable. Right? Maybe not), you really have to after 4♣. If it's turning them down into us down, oh well. +50, even +100, isn't going to score well against all the +140s anyway. Yeah, it beats minus anything, but you're trying to stop on a very thin dime here.

If this is IMPs/Chicago and not matchpoints, the payoff/cost value is even higher for 4♠.

[JSSMP1]

mycroft, on 2022-September-29, 09:10, said:

You bid like you had

---

.

"Oh, 4♣ is probably going down, but partner clearly is already bidding my values. My entry, my doubleton trump, my intermediates,... I can't go on, what if it goes down too?"

Your partner has shown at least 7 spades and a very good hand to play in spades (and the auction says you have very few losers in clubs - frankly one more than I would expect). You have said nothing. You have a *very good hand* and have not supported with support (granted, you haven't had much of a chance). You think ♦KJT2 is "very bad points" - but even if west does have the ♦A, if either partner or East has the Q, (and partner has more than one diamond. very likely, given how short he must be in clubs) you still have an entry. If that entry is needed to play the ♠T for the critical finesse...

Now, if partner does bid your cards (for instance, bidding 1, 2, 3♠ on AKJ854 because he knows you won't balance with T9), then I can see it. But he shouldn't. If you trust partner to show their hand and then let you make a decision, he has shown the hand he has. And whether you put him in game before 4♣ (yes, I'm suggesting that's reasonable. Right? Maybe not), you really have to after 4♣. If it's turning them down into us down, oh well. +50, even +100, isn't going to score well against all the +140s anyway. Yeah, it beats minus anything, but you're trying to stop on a very thin dime here.

If this is IMPs/Chicago and not matchpoints, the payoff/cost value is even higher for 4♠.

This was matchpoints. At IMPS it is an easy 4♠ bid.

Thanks for the extensive answer! I do think I underestimated the ♦ strength at the time. Still, even in hindsight I cannot really explain to myself why I would not bid after our 3♠, but I would bid it after their 4♣.

[michel444]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-September-29, 07:03, said:

I wonder how many people had an auction starting 1♣-4♠.

me 2 sound like underbiding

[LBengtsson]

mw64ahw, on 2022-September-29, 07:53, said:

You have the strength for 4♠, but I would treat that as pre-emptive so possibly missing out on a slam. Possibly a X followed by ♠s or an IJO

4♠ can be pre-emptive but it can be this hand also. You can miss slam, but if you do not bid game on the first round here, you may miss game! Partner will have to have perfect cards and fit for slam to be made. Imo X is not the right bid here as even when partner responds, you will still bid 4♠. The best advice I was given is always with these sorts of hands is to bid what you think you can make. If you cannot make 4♠, then the opps. can make a good part score, even ♣ game with the right fit.

[JSSMP1]

Interesting to see the responses! I though North should bid 1♠ at first to show some strength, but after Pass by South jump to 4♠.
I don't like the X for North. The strength is mainly due to the length of spades, so I would want to show my suit immediately.

[Douglas43]

JSSMP1, on 2022-September-29, 14:21, said:

Interesting to see the responses! I though North should bid 1♠ at first to show some strength, but after Pass by South jump to 4♠.
I don't like the X for North. The strength is mainly due to the length of spades, so I would want to show my suit immediately.

I'm with you. If you don't bid 4♠ first round because you think you are too strong, you might as well try it the second time.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2022-September-29, 09:10, said:

Your partner has shown at least 7 spades and a very good hand to play in spades (and the auction says you have very few losers in clubs - frankly one more than I would expect). You have said nothing. You have a *very good hand* and have not supported with support (granted, you haven't had much of a chance). You think ♦KJT2 is "very bad points" - but even if west does have the ♦A, if either partner or East has the Q, (and partner has more than one diamond. very likely, given how short he must be in clubs) you still have an entry. If that entry is needed to play the ♠T for the critical finesse...

Now, if partner does bid your cards (for instance, bidding 1, 2, 3♠ on AKJ854 because he knows you won't balance with T9), then I can see it. But he shouldn't. If you trust partner to show their hand and then let you make a decision, he has shown the hand he has. And whether you put him in game before 4♣ (yes, I'm suggesting that's reasonable. Right? Maybe not), you really have to after 4♣. If it's turning them down into us down, oh well. +50, even +100, isn't going to score well against all the +140s anyway. Yeah, it beats minus anything, but you're trying to stop on a very thin dime here.

If this is IMPs/Chicago and not matchpoints, the payoff/cost value is even higher for 4♠.

I agree with your evaluation of South's options, but I struggle to see why an immediate 4♠ will payoff in any situation with screens, let alone at IMPs where slams are vital. Probably just late

[mycroft]

What do you need from partner for slam? Three cards, at least, including an Ace - and ♣KQJ don't count. And West opened. In CyberYeti's world, at least, they frequently have a 15 HCP balanced hand when they open - I'd bet more frequently than they have this kind of one-suiter monstrosity. 15 and 15 and AKK is...40.

That line of thought would be much less prevalent in most of the rest of the world, of course.

So, slam is possible, but not very likely. What other benefit do you get by the 1,2,3♠? Well, against weaker players, you might get to play in 2 or 3♠ when 4 will go down because partner's broke. Against stronger players, "walking the dog" sometimes works, too, and +570 or +530 is usually a good score.

Conversely, what does (1♣)-4♠ get you? Well, if opener does have the balanced hand out of NT range (whatever it is), good luck to them, finding the 4=4 heart fit that is trivial after 1♣-1♠-X. If they have a big club fit, well - is 4 making? Do they know that? What is 5♣ going to get them? And remember, for exactly the same reasons you're telling me that slam is still on the table, 6♣ could easily be on the table for them (spade void). How much communication do you want to let them do to find out they have 26 of the "30-point deck"?

Sure, you're telling partner you know what to do better than she does. But 15+15 again - this time, you probably do. You've also basically taken away her agency when they bid on, too, which isn't great, but yeah.

Would I make the call? I doubt it. Is it a bad call, even opposite an unpassed hand? Not really, no.

[Cyberyeti]

mycroft, on 2022-September-30, 11:25, said:

What do you need from partner for slam? Three cards, at least, including an Ace - and ♣KQJ don't count. And West opened. In CyberYeti's world, at least, they frequently have a 15 HCP balanced hand when they open - I'd bet more frequently than they have this kind of one-suiter monstrosity. 15 and 15 and AKK is...40.

That line of thought would be much less prevalent in most of the rest of the world, of course.

So, slam is possible, but not very likely. What other benefit do you get by the 1,2,3♠? Well, against weaker players, you might get to play in 2 or 3♠ when 4 will go down because partner's broke. Against stronger players, "walking the dog" sometimes works, too, and +570 or +530 is usually a good score.

Conversely, what does (1♣)-4♠ get you? Well, if opener does have the balanced hand out of NT range (whatever it is), good luck to them, finding the 4=4 heart fit that is trivial after 1♣-1♠-X. If they have a big club fit, well - is 4 making? Do they know that? What is 5♣ going to get them? And remember, for exactly the same reasons you're telling me that slam is still on the table, 6♣ could easily be on the table for them (spade void). How much communication do you want to let them do to find out they have 26 of the "30-point deck"?

Sure, you're telling partner you know what to do better than she does. But 15+15 again - this time, you probably do. You've also basically taken away her agency when they bid on, too, which isn't great, but yeah.

Would I make the call? I doubt it. Is it a bad call, even opposite an unpassed hand? Not really, no.

What do you need from partner for a slam ? ♥AKJx and out, yes you could easily be missing a slam here, you could also have a nasty decision to make at the 5 level. I was actually thinking of the 5M problem where opener has a lot of clubs but responder looking at 4 doesn't know if partner has 3 or 6 or 7.