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Acol Daylong - Feedback thread Feedback and comments on argine and the acol system it plays

#1 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 04:46

As the Free Acol Daylong experiment has been spawning quite a few threads, here's an official feedback thread.

Please post comments about the free acol daylong and the robots used in it (Argine).

Same as with GIB reports, it helps to include the actual hand, or at least mention the board number and the daylong date.

#2 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 08:50

I have written a few pieces in the "something new" thread and in robot reports.

Generally, the Acolist robots bid very well.

A few things that would be nice to clarify in the system notes:
- what are the rules for which of two (or three) four-card suits to open?
- to what extend to we play Walsh style (Acolists tend to rebid Walsh style, of course if they open a major with 4M4m32 it is moot).
- FSF is game forcing (I suppose that is what is meant by "making the auction forcing".
- The 1NT rebid is 15-17 (should be obvious, maybe, but isn't to British club players :) )
- Count signals are high=even
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 09:42

Might it not make more sense to open an "Argine Robot Discussion" forum parallel to this one?
That would allow people to continue to create a topic for each bug/discussion as has always been done, rather than rolling them all into one noisy cauldron.
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#4 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 11:01

It's an experiment for now, so it seems premature to dedicate an entire forum to Argine.

#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 15:58

View Postdiana_eva, on 2022-November-30, 11:01, said:

It's an experiment for now, so it seems premature to dedicate an entire forum to Argine.


If Argine is unlikely to be used in future for other bidding systems (really? why?) then I can see a case, but even then I would have thought is it useful to BBO to distinguish discussions about the Acol Daylong format and geographic availability from discussion of the related robot problems and to keep each Argine/Acol problem in a specific topic to identify consistency and gravity, as we have always done with GiB and 2/1. But up to you, of course.
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#6 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 16:37

View Postpescetom, on 2022-November-30, 09:42, said:

Might it not make more sense to open an "Argine Robot Discussion" forum parallel to this one?
That would allow people to continue to create a topic for each bug/discussion as has always been done, rather than rolling them all into one noisy cauldron.


I agree. GiB has enough to answer for itself without having to worry about Argine
Plus it might be clearer to new and less informed players that there are two different bots and styles of play
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2022-November-30, 17:22

Haven't seen the ACOL daylong, is it available for Canada?
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#8 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-December-02, 13:50

Argine appears to be just as hopeless at slam auctions as GIB is - in fact, I'd say worse.

My post the other day had it bypassing all cuebids and Blackwood to leap to slam with a missing control and no clue about the number of keycards (* edit - sorry aces; the lack of keycard is another giant disadvantage). I never linked to the hand, so here it is in full. I managed to make it, but we could easily have been off two diamonds, let alone numerous other possibilities..



Today I tried a splinter.. (I was South):


Perhaps optimistic on my end, but 5?? With KQxx in their suit and four points outside? A 1.5% board dropped my average down to 70% :( (The field appears very weak at the moment.)

Note the really bizarre diamond play by the robots too. GIB sees letting the J hold as *comfortably* the best play at MPs (and IMPs too); can't see any excuse for overtaking.

View Poststeve2005, on 2022-November-30, 17:22, said:

Haven't seen the ACOL daylong, is it available for Canada?

Nope. Just GB,IE,AU,NZ.
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#9 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 02:23

This is the worst play bug I've seen yet:



After 5 tricks, North has just shown out on the second trump. The hand is an open book, as I'm guaranteed the SK and DA for the opening bid. West has a trivial 10 tricks (eg duck a spade, ruff the diamond high, and take the marked finesse).

Instead, West plays trump Ace and another, guaranteeing down 1.
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#10 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 02:40

Having never played Acol before I've been finding this daylong an interesting learning experience.
Many things puzzle me but the biggest one concerns the opening bid.
Playing 4 card majors and a 1NT range of 12-14, how do you decide when to open a balanced - or semi-balanced hand - 1X or 1NT?
As in 12-14 - 4333 or 4342 - 1S or 1NT?
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#11 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 02:42

The same way you decide whether or not to open a 15-17 point balanced hand with a strong 1NT. If you have it, you bid it.
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#12 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 03:00

1h-1s
2h
Should show 6 hearts, argine explains it as 5+. Whether it would actually ever bid 2h on a 5card suit I don't know.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#13 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 06:08

I doubled 4c for penalties and opps just kept improving the contract. The smoke cleared after our 6th penalty double. 6ntx-5 was just 90% so apparently it was duplicated a couple of times. I left a robot report.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#14 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 07:13

View Posthelene_t, on 2022-December-04, 06:08, said:

I doubled 4c for penalties and opps just kept improving the contract. The smoke cleared after our 6th penalty double. 6ntx-5 was just 90% so apparently it was duplicated a couple of times. I left a robot report.


Can you add the link here too pls?

#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-December-04, 10:38

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-December-02, 13:50, said:

Argine appears to be just as hopeless at slam auctions as GIB is - in fact, I'd say worse.

My post the other day had it bypassing all cuebids and Blackwood to leap to slam with a missing control and no clue about the number of keycards (* edit - sorry aces; the lack of keycard is another giant disadvantage). I never linked to the hand, so here it is in full. I managed to make it, but we could easily have been off two diamonds, let alone numerous other possibilities..




If the fourth suit is now forcing to game in Acol then I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a 2NT response shows 4 card fit ;)
The explanations look strange, all the same: a game force with minimum 10 HCP and a 3NT rebid which promises exactly 4 card hearts when the hand is 5 card.
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#16 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2022-December-05, 03:29

View Postdiana_eva, on 2022-December-04, 07:13, said:

Can you add the link here too pls?

https://tinyurl.com/2msjttbs

One of the problems was that the 5 bid was meant as sign-off but interpretted as an answer to Blackwood.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#17 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2022-December-05, 18:22

Outstanding slam bidding by Argine.
Very impressed with the way it carefully assesses keycards before determining the optimal contract.
I wasn't alone 48 players in 6D-1 or 6S-1.


A few craftier souls cottoned on to the better approach:

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#18 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2022-December-05, 23:49

Need an ACOL expert to confirm, but I don't think this can be right:



Double is "6+ HCP, takeout"
2N is "15-19 HCP, game forcing"

My other options were to show a 4 card major, or rebid 2, which showed 12-14..

This is the second negative double issue I've seen, with the other being that 1 (1) x showed 10+ points and said nothing about suits.

Also, I only just noticed a hand thepossum posted in the other thread. It was edited in later, so others might have missed it too. Well worth looking at, because it is truly insane :)
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#19 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2022-December-06, 01:52

I've advertised the tournament to my club members who play on BBO and offered to deliver their feedback. These players are experienced club players who rarely play in district or national events.

"I found them a vast improvement on the usual ones. I could have done with the information they give when making a bid on the screen for much longer. I tried to bid using their system as I looked at my options of rebid which weren't always what was in my head to bid. Sometimes their system worked but not always. That may have been my error in how I played the hands."
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#20 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2022-December-06, 15:11

View Postsmerriman, on 2022-December-05, 23:49, said:

posted in the other thread. It was edited in later, so others might have missed it too. Well worth looking at, because it is truly insane :)

I thought this one looked relatively comprehensible: the human should have had 6+ to intervene, Argine just followed the Acol principle of bidding to the length of fit ;)
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