[Cyberyeti]

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Please indicate if form of scoring and/or vulnerability would make a difference

Your methods:

X = takeout of hearts, you play lebensohl over this
2N = 15-17(18)

What do you bid ?

[DavidKok]

Double. There's multiple options, but double is most flexible and probably best on balance.

[LBengtsson]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-03, 09:50, said:

Double. There's multiple options, but double is most flexible and probably best on balance.

Agree. A "grit teeth" X at whatever form of scoring and vulnerability. You could have a worse hand than this, and whilst it is not the ideal shape it does have a (poor) four card ♠ suit, and when you X any weak two [major, Multi] bid I would hope that my partner would have four of the other major. Bidding 2NT instead here automatically prevents partner bidding 2♠ which could be the only making contract.

I do not like 5422 hand for doubling generally, but you have an extra honor card to make up for the shape so not bidding and expecting partner to balance makes life difficult for him. Better to X and apologize after if it is the wrong decision.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-03, 09:50, said:

Double. There's multiple options, but double is most flexible and probably best on balance.

The problem with double is the perennial lebensohl issue of what do you do with an invite opposite.

Where is the borderline for you for a) a balanced hand b) a hand with a 5 or 6 card minor opposite a double for showing it as "good" or "bad".

Are you going to bid 3♣ over 2N which may end the auction ?

I thought it was only close for this reason.

[DavidKok]

If partner bids 2NT I will bid 3♣. Refusing the transfer shows a completely different hand. Some people play equal level conversion or better-minor-ohl here but I do not.
I play transfer Lebensohl, which allows for a number of invitational sequences. On the example hand there's also not much of an issue - partner does have a way to invite with long spades, and we will accept a diamond invite but not a club invite. Generally if you play Lebensohl you just have to give up on invitational hands - upgrade to GF or downgrade to weak and live with it. I've also been told that a direct 3m is NF invitational, going through 2NT to a minor is weak and GF minor-suited hands just blast game (or bypass 3NT to make a strong slam try).

[foobar]

3♦ -- bid where you live. Trying to land in 2♠ on a dime is asking for the inevitable 2N / 3♣.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-03, 11:25, said:

If partner bids 2NT I will bid 3♣. Refusing the transfer shows a completely different hand. Some people play equal level conversion or better-minor-ohl here but I do not.
I play transfer Lebensohl, which allows for a number of invitational sequences. On the example hand there's also not much of an issue - partner does have a way to invite with long spades, and we will accept a diamond invite but not a club invite. Generally if you play Lebensohl you just have to give up on invitational hands - upgrade to GF or downgrade to weak and live with it. I've also been told that a direct 3m is NF invitational, going through 2NT to a minor is weak and GF minor-suited hands just blast game (or bypass 3NT to make a strong slam try).

But what is a weak hand and what is an invitational one ? Hxxxx and a 9 count in a minor is which ? A balanced 9 or 10 count ?

[DavidKok]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-June-03, 12:01, said:

But what is a weak hand and what is an invitational one ? Hxxxx and a 9 count in a minor is which ? A balanced 9 or 10 count ?

Balanced 10 is GF if you don't have too many wasted values in hearts. 9-counts are a problem, that's the whole point. Preempts work. That's why I bid so many of them.

[Gilithin]

foobar, on 2023-June-03, 11:37, said:

3♦ -- bid where you live. Trying to land in 2♠ on a dime is asking for the inevitable 2N / 3♣.

What is the advantage of this versus doubling and bidding 3♦ over 3♣ to show the flexible hand? Sure a 2NT advance is not ideal but surely after a preempt it is best to play the odds?

[Cyberyeti]

Partner's hand was x, KJx, Q10xx, Axxxx over X-P(hearts)- he had an awkward choice 3♣ or 2N then 3N to show a heart stop were both in the frame opposite implied spades.

Choosing the latter unfortunately led to the loss of 6 spade tricks.

2N or 3♦ initiallty will lead to 3N making in the first case and quite possibly 6♦ making in the second, but 5♦ if not.

[Gilithin]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-June-08, 01:22, said:

Partner's hand was x, KJx, Q10xx, Axxxx over X-P(hearts)- he had an awkward choice 3♣ or 2N then 3N to show a heart stop were both in the frame opposite implied spades.

It seems to me that perhaps the thread should have been from the Advancer's point of view.

[Cyberyeti]

Gilithin, on 2023-June-08, 02:59, said:

It seems to me that perhaps the thread should have been from the Advancer's point of view.

Wasn't sure if people were going to start with 2N (which I think is what I would have done).

[nullve]

DavidKok, on 2023-June-03, 11:25, said:

I've also been told that a direct 3m is NF invitational, going through 2NT to a minor is weak

That's part of lebensohl over

(2M)-X-(P)

but necessarily over

1N*-(2M),

* some 3-point range, e.g. 15-17

where 3m = NAT GF is playable because of partner's narrow range.