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Strong club then transfer over interference

#1 User is offline   pilun 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 01:20

We play transfers after

1 - (1/1) - ?

where 1 = 16+. After a 1 overcall

X = takeout
1NT = natural, not forcing (okay with that?)
2 = diamonds, constructive+
2 = hearts
2 = typically stopper ask (should it be GF?)
2 = clubs
2NT+ = natural GF

Say partner bids 2 to transfer to hearts and the next hand passes. Then what?

We would play opener's change of suit (3/) as 1-round forces.
A jump to 3 is GF; 2NT = min with a stopper.
So heaps of hands would bid 2, such as balanced, no stopper.

Could accepting the transfer be a singleton? Say
xxx x AKQx AQxxx?
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 01:33

1-(1)-P = ?

1-(1)-P = ?
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#3 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 02:21

Yes, you can and sometimes should accept the transfer with a singleton in my opinion. More generally I think there are four ways to go about this.

  • Make partner's transfers forcing to game. This resolves most of the need to have strength splits, and you can transfer accept as a temporising bid even with shortage since the auction won't drop there. I think this is probably the worst option as you should really be in the auction with some values here, but I wanted to mention it for completeness.
  • Accept even if you have possible shortage. This wins whenever partner has a relatively weak hand with long hearts, 2 might be your last making contract despite the misfit. If partner has 6 hearts and only a few points (say, 5-6 or so) you really want to both be in the auction with that hand and also want to make partner's long suit trumps. With this agreement you can play the rest as you say, new suits forcing, jump raise forcing to game, the cue bid and 2NT as specific hands that have no fit and no long suit to bid. This is very similar to what I suggested in https://www.bridgeba...us-opening-bid/.
  • Reserve a number of new suit bids for minimum unbalanced hands with poor support, in particular 16-19 HCP ish and non forcing. This gains a bit on those hands (though it might also cost if partner has extra length and we go from one misfit to the next, often we belong in the long suit of the weak hand there) but loses on the stronger hands. You probably want to reserve the cue bid as a generic game force without a fit with this approach, meaning you still don't get to show your shape if you have extras. This way you have ways to run when you have (very) short support for partner, so that the transfer accept will usually show 2 or 3.
  • Use a gadget like Lebensohl (or Good/Bad 2NT or some other pivot) to separate the competitive misfit hands from the game forcing ones. This is perhaps a best of both worlds, where you have the option to run should you desire to but also you can make strong natural forcing bids with extras. You do lose a natural bid, e.g. 2NT, and it is also very complicated as it may depend on the interference and response which bid you want to use for this and how you treat the followups.
Personally I like option 2 - just accept even if it's a possible misfit, and accept that sometimes you'll be in 2 when 3m would have been better. If partner has extras you will still find your right games, if opener has extras you have nice and natural auctions, and unilaterally running from partner's transfer with a weak hand is not that safe anyway.


As an aside I think the natural NF 1NT response is 'obviously bad' but I also don't know how else to utilise this, so I think it's fine. Suggestions on how to better use this are very welcome, it might be OK to pass with 5-7 HCP (semi)balanced hands with some spade length and values and no 4c and instead use 1NT as a club transfer. In my other thread I recommended using 1*-(1)-2 as semipositive with hearts, so that we have a strength split in case they bounce to 3 or 4. But this is a lone exception to my transfer approach, it is more consistent and easier to play it as game forcing three-suited takeout. I think showing this hand type early is valuable as the opponents are likely to raise when we have shortage in their suits, though arguably doubling and doubling again is fine as well. Stopper ask doesn't seem to be a huge concern to me, and in fact even if responder has a spade stopper it is probably better for opener to declare notrump as it puts overcaller on lead.

 nullve, on 2023-December-05, 01:33, said:

1-(1)-P = ?

1-(1)-P = ?
Weak (0-4 ish) or trap pass or 5-7 (semi)balanced or clubs and no desire to bid 1NT.
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#4 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 07:36

Adam Meyerson (awm) has this all figured out. Just do a search for his threads on the topic or look up his IMprecision notes. He uses 1N as natural GF and that just comes up a lot more than the nf NT and makes for smoother auctions for these hands. Double is takeout shape (roughly 6+) and you usually are passing with length in the opponent's suit, trusting that partner will be able to take some action.
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#5 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 08:17

1NT natural GF is almost certainly better, thank you. That way 2 can always show clubs and the 5-7 bal or clubs hands that aren't suitable for a double can just pass.

Similarly I think the earlier suggestion of using 1*-(1)-2*-(P); 2NT as a natural game force is almost certainly better than my previous idea of using it as a natural NF misfitting unbalanced hand. Reserving NT bids for natural game forcing hands makes a lot of sense in many situations.
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#6 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 08:18

Roy Hughes (Building a BIdding System, 2005, pg. 58) recommends using transfers with distribution with or without values for game.

We have adapted that approach, however systems are on over X or 1 interference.

My Example: 1 (1) ?
Pass 0-4 hcp
X 5+ Balanced or 5 (Opener bids 1 with 3-cd support
1 Transfer to 1NT (with stopper)
1NT Transfer to 2
2 Transfer to 2
2 4=1=4=4 / 4=1=(5-3), GF
2 Transfer to 2, GF
2 Transfer to 2NT with stopper
2NT 5-5 Non-touching suits
3 5-5 Minors
3 5-5 Red Suits
3 5-5 Majors
Also, see David Yates comments on BridgeWinners.com 4/22/23
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail . 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
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#7 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 11:14

 PrecisionL, on 2023-December-05, 08:18, said:

Roy Hughes (Building a BIdding System, 2005, pg. 58) recommends using transfers with distribution with or without values for game.

We have adapted that approach, however systems are on over X or 1 interference.

My Example: 1 (1) ?
Pass 0-4 hcp
X 5+ Balanced or 5 (Opener bids 1 with 3-cd support
1 Transfer to 1NT (with stopper)
1NT Transfer to 2
2 Transfer to 2
2 4=1=4=4 / 4=1=(5-3), GF
2 Transfer to 2, GF
2 Transfer to 2NT with stopper
2NT 5-5 Non-touching suits
3 5-5 Minors
3 5-5 Red Suits
3 5-5 Majors
Also, see David Yates comments on BridgeWinners.com 4/22/23


Do you swap suits over higher level interference (say 2D is hearts over their 2C)? Also, how you handle crypto / exclusion bids (like Suction)?
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#8 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2023-December-05, 12:50

FOOBAR, very little experience with exotic defenses. No, we don't change the system.

Here is Hughes example of overcall of 1 after partner opened 1 Strong & Artificial:

Pass weak or length in spades
X 5+ hcp
1NT clubs
2 s
2 s
2 1=4=4=4 / 1=4=(5-3)
2 Minors
2NT s + s
3 s + s
3 GF s
3 GF s w shortness
3 AKQxxx unknown suit
3NT GF with cards in the opp suit

Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail . 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
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#9 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2023-December-07, 10:13

 PrecisionL, on 2023-December-05, 08:18, said:

Roy Hughes (Building a BIdding System, 2005, pg. 58) recommends using transfers with distribution with or without values for game.

We have adapted that approach, however systems are on over X or 1 interference.

My Example: 1 (1) ?
Pass 0-4 hcp
X 5+ Balanced or 5 (Opener bids 1 with 3-cd support
1 Transfer to 1NT (with stopper)
1NT Transfer to 2
2 Transfer to 2
2 4=1=4=4 / 4=1=(5-3), GF
2 Transfer to 2, GF
2 Transfer to 2NT with stopper
2NT 5-5 Non-touching suits
3 5-5 Minors
3 5-5 Red Suits
3 5-5 Majors
Also, see David Yates comments on BridgeWinners.com 4/22/23


Can you post a link to the BW post? A search for David Yates didn't turn up anything.
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#10 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2023-December-07, 12:03

Bridgewinners.com Precision: Looking for a Rule (over interference) David Caprera 4/17/23

https://bridgewinner...ing-for-a-rule/

David Yates 4/22/23
Ultra Relay: see Daniel's web page: https://bridgewithda...19/07/Ultra.pdf
C3: Copious Canape Club is still my favorite system. (Ultra upgraded, PM for notes)

Santa Fe Precision published 8/19. TOP3 published 11/20. Magic experiment (Science Modernized) with Lenzo. 2020: Jan Eric Larsson's Cottontail . 2020. BFUN (Bridge For the UNbalanced) 2021: Weiss Simplified (Canape & Relay). 2022: Canary Modernized, 2023-4: KOK Canape.
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#11 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2023-December-15, 08:03

1 = "16+ unBAL or 17+ BAL"

1-?:

1 = SP or P2
...1 = "19+ unBAL or 20+ BAL"
......1N = P2
.........2+ = RS
......2+ = SP, RS
...1N = "17-19 BAL"
...2+ = "16-18 unBAL", e.g. a NT defence
1 = DN
...1N = "17-21 BAL"
...2,...,2 = "16-21 BAL" OR ?, e.g. a NT defence that could also take care of some GF hands
...2N = "22-23 BAL"
...3+ = remaining GF hands
1N = P3
...2+ = RS
2+ = P1, RS

where P1, P2 and P3 are positive ranges from weakest to strongest (say, 8-10, 11-13 and 14+ in a hand with 1534 shape) and RS is a suitable relay structure.

1-(1)-?:

System on, i.e.

P = SP or P2
X = DN
1N+: as without the overcall
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