[shugart24]

Partner opens a Precision 1D...You have game forcing values with a 4 card Major and 5 Clubs. DO you show the Major first (one round force) , or do you bid 2C(game force). I cannot recall if the 2C bid denies a 4 card Major. Thanks for comments

[johnu]

For me, it's an almost automatic 2♣ response. If you don't bid clubs first, you can't sort out the relative suit lengths of spades and clubs.

[shugart24]

johnu, on 2024-May-30, 15:57, said:

For me, it's an almost automatic 2♣ response. If you don't bid clubs first, you can't sort out the relative suit lengths of spades and clubs.

so with 4 clubs you show the spades ?, not the immediate game force

[johnu]

shugart24, on 2024-May-30, 18:48, said:

so with 4 clubs you show the spades ?, not the immediate game force

The original question was 4 spades and 5 clubs. With only 4 clubs I would respond 1♠ without additional partnership agreements about continuations. I'll note that there is a recent trend to respond 2♣ with your theoretical game force 4-4 black suit hand (and maybe with only 3 clubs for some, and I assume just 2 clubs for a few). Presumably they have some partnership agreements about how the auction would unfold.

[DavidKok]

In Precision I think both routes are fine. In standard I am a big fan of establishing a game force and showing my shape in two rounds with 4♠5♣, and also with a balanced powerhouse over 1♥ (but not 1♦). The reason is that on 1♥-1♠ it can be awkward to set up a game force cheaply in standard, and partner might not have a good way to show their shape and strength in case slam is on.

In Precision this is less of a concern due to the limited nature of the hand. Therefore I'd be temped to respond 1♠ more often (certainly with a balanced hand, so 4♠4♣32), especially if we don't have slam ambition. But I don't know what's best. Probably with 5♣4♠ there's not much of a downside to starting with 2♣.

[awm]

This depends on your follow-up methods. If your style is mostly to bid naturally after the openings, then you should definitely bid 2♣ with your 4♠-5♣ GF, planning to follow up with a spade bid later to better describe your hand.

The discussion around 4♠-4♣ is usually in the context of a 1♥ opening by partner and a game-forcing 2/1. Here, many people have chosen to play that a 2♠ reverse by opener does not show extras (keep in mind you're in a game force anyway). In this case, you expect that if there is a 4-4 spade fit, the auction will start 1♥-2♣-2♠-3♠ and the fact that you have only four clubs and not five is unlikely to be material. However, if partner does not have four spades, you will have a better auction via 1♥-2♣-2♦/2♥-2NT than you could have after 1♥-1♠-2♦/2♥ because there the first auction is definitely game forcing whereas the second auction doesn't leave a lot of game-forcing calls available (you will probably have to jump to 3NT at next turn, which is not great if partner has more to show).

Whether you should respond 2♣ over 1♦ with 4♠-4♣ depends a lot on your follow-up agreements. The fact that partner opened in a minor makes it more likely you belong in a minor suit (in which case distorting your club length could cost) and it's not clear that partner is always rebidding 2♠ if he has four (most people play that this rebid either shows or denies five diamonds in addition to showing four spades) nor is everyone even in a game force (2/1 GF over 1M openings is much more popular than 2♣/1♦ GF, although certainly some people play both).

FWIW, Sam and I play a relay-oriented style rather than bidding naturally (even though our initial responses to 1♦ are natural) so we will respond 1♠ even with longer clubs and plan on a sequence where responder makes a GF relay bid after opener's rebid and then opener describes his hand fully. For us, keeping the auction low (so that we can relay) is more important than responder describing (normally it's opener who describes in these sequences). But this obviously requires much more complicated methods, and it can get us in trouble if the opponent in 4th seat makes a big preempt (i.e. after 1♦-pass-1♠-4♥-pass-pass-dbl, opener will probably bid 4♠ on three and we could easily belong in 5♣ instead of the 4-3 spade fit, whereas after 1♦-pass-2♣-4♥-pass-pass-dbl one is much better positioned). Of course, these big preempts when we have GF values are not that common.

[blackshoe]

Standard Modern Precision agreements are that 1♠ is forcing and unlimited. 2♣ is initially game forcing, and becomes invitational if responder bids 3♣ at his next call. Also, 2♣ denies a four card major unless responder has 6 or more clubs and 4 or more spades and a game forcing hand.