[shugart24]

Playing Precision, I have been experimenting with putting 5M332 hands into either the 1NT bid if 13-15, or the 1D bid if 11-12

When opening 1NT, we use 2C Stayman and we use 3C response as a game forcing 4441 shape hand with black shortness (3D shows red shortness) Question 1, what do other strong club bidders use the 3C and 3D bid for, when partner opens 1NT with 13-15, or 14-16

When bidding goes, 1D -1M-1NT, we currently use XYZ, 3C and 3D responses are as above. I am wondering if , instead of XYZ, we shpuld have the 2C bid be puppet ?

Or should I get rid of the current use of 3C (4441 black) and use 3C to be Puppet.

Thanks for feedback. This is a bit of an experiment of not bidding 1M when 5M332 that seems to be working, but I am winging it

[mycroft]

• Arguably, play 3♣ Puppet Stayman like all the modern Standard players. (Arguably, play 14-16 1NT openers like all the modern Precision, and many modern Standard, players, too, and 1♦ on 11-13). Make sure that it's the 3♦ is "no 5-card major" variety, so you can have the 1NT-3♣; 3♦-3NT "was checking for 5M332" auctions without giving away too much.
  
• Strong 4441s usually can be handled well with Stayman and 3M (if you promise 4oM-5m, okay, maybe not). Having bids specifically for that very rare hand are fine if there's nothing else to use it for. But see 1. :-). I note that in my Transfer Precision system, we absolutely used 1♣-3m as "4441, GF (but limited), black/red singleton", and 3M and 4m as "4441, 12-and-4 controls". But there really wasn't much other use for those bids, in the way that "1NT makes partner Captain" has.
  
• If you're XYNT-ing, you could play "we bid 2M with 5" over 2♣, especially if you keep 3m as the Marmics (so partner will have 2). Whether that works for you depends strongly on everything else.

I don't think this is something where you can really go too wrong, as long as there's some way to alert partner to 5cM (or to 3coM by responder, I guess). You're bidding 5M332 as balanced hands because in general, they are. Some 5-3 fits you'll miss, and some of those will cost you. Sure, minimize them, but be careful not to lose more than you gain.

[shugart24]

mycroft, on 2024-July-30, 11:47, said:

• Arguably, play 3♣ Puppet Stayman like all the modern Standard players. (Arguably, play 14-16 1NT openers like all the modern Precision, and many modern Standard, players, too, and 1♦ on 11-13). Make sure that it's the 3♦ is "no 5-card major" variety, so you can have the 1NT-3♣; 3♦-3NT "was checking for 5M332" auctions without giving away too much.
  
• Strong 4441s usually can be handled well with Stayman and 3M (if you promise 4oM-5m, okay, maybe not). Having bids specifically for that very rare hand are fine if there's nothing else to use it for. But see 1. :-). I note that in my Transfer Precision system, we absolutely used 1♣-3m as "4441, GF (but limited), black/red singleton", and 3M and 4m as "4441, 12-and-4 controls". But there really wasn't much other use for those bids, in the way that "1NT makes partner Captain" has.
  
• If you're XYNT-ing, you could play "we bid 2M with 5" over 2♣, especially if you keep 3m as the Marmics (so partner will have 2). Whether that works for you depends strongly on everything else.

I don't think this is something where you can really go too wrong, as long as there's some way to alert partner to 5cM (or to 3coM by responder, I guess). You're bidding 5M332 as balanced hands because in general, they are. Some 5-3 fits you'll miss, and some of those will cost you. Sure, minimize them, but be careful not to lose more than you gain.

Thanks for the inpit; I'll study it and see if any other comments come about. It is nice to know when partner opens 1M, that he is two suited or has length....One of the issues we are facing is when partner opens 1D with 11-12 balanced - say any 4432 or 4333 - and I respond 1M and he responds 2M that I don't know if he is 5D and 4M or weak balanced. It's a dilemna where I am debating whether he should just reply 1NT showing weak balanced vs. the raise. What do you (or others) think of this dilemna?

[mycroft]

Now I'm getting deep into "I don't play this, but" territory.

But, I think that the 2NT "did you raise on 3?" convention might work, or might be sufficiently adapted to your needs, at least in GF situations.

[Shugart23]

Yeah. I feel like I am inventing stuff that others before me have already figured out. So here’s the question: Partner is 4333 and 11-12 Hcp and opens 1D and I respond 1S. I’m starting to think he should respond 1NT, so as to put the brakes on, for whatever I am thinking. I have xyz available if needed. If partner raises me with 4 spades (not 3). Eg 1D-1S-2S I know we have an 8 card fit but I don’t know that he has a pretty lousy hand. I’m starting to think the 2S rebid by opener needs to be 4x5x. (And possibly weak 5332)

[Shugart23]

Yeah. I feel like I am inventing stuff that others before me have already figured out. So here’s the question: Partner is 4333 and 11-12 Hcp and opens 1D and I respond 1S. I’m starting to think he should respond 1NT, so as to put the brakes on, for whatever I am thinking. I have xyz available if needed. If partner raises me with 4 spades (not 3). Eg 1D-1S-2S I know we have an 8 card fit but I don’t know that he has a pretty lousy hand. I’m starting to think the 2S rebid by opener needs to be 4x5x. (And possibly weak 5332)

[DavidKok]

I would go the other direction, which I also think is common and maybe standard. 2M is a minimum with 4 card support (or possibly unbal min with 3 card support), with a 4M5(+)m hand opener jump rebids.

[mycroft]

Good idea David, but that's commonly also a maximum, like good 14 or 15 and 4-5, maybe slightly less with better shape. Especially if responder is also a modern boy that "won't respond with less than zero HCP".

On the other hand, do you much care if it's 11-12(13) balanced with 4M or 11-12(13) with 4M and a diamond suit (4441 or 4252 or 4153)? What about 4225 or 4135 (if those are 1♦ openers)? Can you not game try with your hand as responder and let opener who's looking at their shape decide? Is this a game-or-slam concern, or a game-or-notgame, or? What about when they compete after 2M is passed (or before 2M is passed)?

[DavidKok]

I like a simplified AEC structure here, this is not compatible with the standard precision 1♦ opening but might illustrate nicely what sort of solution you could look for:

1♦-1♠; ?

• 1NT: 11-13, no 4c♠.
  
• 2♣: 11-15, 5(+)♣, 4♥.
  
• 2♦: 11-15, 5(+)♦, 4♥.
  
• 2♥: - (you could use this for something artificial, which would immediately improve the system at the cost of increased complexity).
  
• 2♠: 1) 11-13 bal, 4c♠; 2) 11-12 unbal (5(+)m, 4♠); 3) 11-13 4♠441 or 4) 11-12 3♠4♥5(+)m.
  
• 2NT: 13-15 5m4♠22.
  
• 3♣: 13-15 4♠5(+)♦0-1♣.
  
• 3♦: 13-15 4♠5(+)♣0-1♦.
  
• 3♥: 13-15 4♠0-1♥, typically 53 or 54 in the minors but 62 is possible.
  
• 3♠: 14-15 4♠441.

With 4♠, 6(+)m and a maximum with a good suit rebid 4m.

Now of course in standard Precision the hand types in 1♦ are different, so instead I would play:
1♦-1♠; ?

• 1NT: 11-13, no 4c♠.
  
• 2♣: 11-15, 54 in the minors either way, at most 2♠ if minimum (hoping to get another bid with a maximum to complete shape description).
  
• 2♦: 11-13, 6(+)♦, at most 2♠.
  
• 2♥: ??, I want to say 14-15 4♥5(+)m, but since 1♦ includes both, say, 1=4=3=5 and 1=4=5=3 this might be ambiguous regarding the minor suit.
  
• 2♠: 1) 11-13 bal, 4c♠; 2) 11-12 unbal (5(+)m, 4♠); 3) 11-13 4♠441 or 4) 11-12 3♠ unbal (5431-type hand, rare 3=0=5=5 type, or 6(+)♦).
  
• 2NT: 13-15 6(+)♦3♠.
  
• 3♣: 13-15 5(+)♦5(+)♣.
  
• 3♦: 13-15 6(+)♦, at most 2♠.
  
• 3♥: ??
  
• 3♠: 14-15 4♠ unbal (5(+)m or 4441).

Personally I am unhappy with the amount of ambiguity here, and of course it is even less clear on competitive auctions, which is why I moved away from the standard nebulous 1♦ in my Precision systems.

The structure over 1♦-1♥ is similar.

On the 1♦-1M; 1NT start I would play XYZ. I think there's room to improve on XYZ, but it's better to start with something common. The version I play seems different from yours, here are my agreements:

• 2♣: Relay to 2♦, 1) to play 2♦; 2) all invitational hands, or 3) 5M332 GF no SI (jump rebid 3NT).
  
• 2♦: Game forcing asking bid, opener bids extra length up the line.
  
• 2♥: Weak, pass or correct.
  
• 2♠: Weak, to play (does not exist on 1♦-1♥; 1NT).
  
• 2NT: Relay to 3♣, 1) to play 3♣; 2) any game forcing 5-5 type hand, responder will bid their second suit (3M showing clubs).
  
• 3♣: GF 4M5(+)♣.
  
• 3♦: GF 4M5(+)♦.
  
• 3M: SI, sets trumps.
  
• 3oM: -
  
• 3NT: To play

[mw64ahw]

DavidKok, on 2024-July-31, 02:39, said:

• 2♠: Weak, to play (does not exist on 1♦-1♥; 1NT).

How about 4♥6♠ to differentiate from 1♦-1♠-1N-2♥ as 4♥5♠?

[DavidKok]

I think you've misread. With 6♠4♥ I am not responding 1♥ to 1♦ - there are too many auctions where that goes wrong (for example, most of the competitive ones). Also with a 6 card suit we have a fit facing a balanced hand, so we can just conceal the four card suit.
If you use some form of UMJOODO you can play 1♦-1♠; 1NT-2♥ as something special, but I think this is not that important.

[shugart24]

Thanks David. I guess the issue or question I have is , if bidding goes 1D-1S-2S where opener has a crappy 11-12 balanced hand with 4 or 5 spades OR has 11-15 HCP with 5+ Diamonds and 4 spades, what is Responder's rebids ?. particularly when doesn't have game forcing values ? I think there are potential problems/

We are going to have 1D -1M-1NT be to show any 11-12 HCP balanced hand ( followed by XYZ) and have 1D-1M-2M to show the two suited Diamond Major hand and then see how that compares in the BBO games, where maybe the sample size will give us a hint which approach is better.

(This isn't something that could be simulated by someone far more skilled than me, is it ?)

[awm]

Here’s another possibility. I consider hand patterns like 1345 as “three suited” in the following.

1♦-1♠:

1nt balanced not four spades
2♣ = transfer, 6+♦ or (5/5 minors max)
2♦ = three suited short in spades
2♥ = spade raise better than 13 balanced
2♠ = spade raise with 11-13 balanced or equivalent
2nt = spade raise with side void
3♣ = 5/5 or more in minors and minimum

Similarly for 1♦-1♥:

1♠ = four spades or three suited short hearts (can be 31(45))
1nt = balanced not four hearts
2♣ = transfer, 6+♦ or 5/5 minors maximum
2♦ = good heart raise
2♥ = 11-13 balanced or equivalent heart raise
2nt = heart raise with side void
3♣ = 5/5 minors minimum

This leaves a few bids free for unusual hands (likely raises) too.

[DavidKok]

 shugart24, on 2024-July-31, 17:09, said:

Thanks David. I guess the issue or question I have is , if bidding goes 1D-1S-2S where opener has a crappy 11-12 balanced hand with 4 or 5 spades OR has 11-15 HCP with 5+ Diamonds and 4 spades, what is Responder's rebids ?. particularly when doesn't have game forcing values ? I think there are potential problems/

We are going to have 1D -1M-1NT be to show any 11-12 HCP balanced hand ( followed by XYZ) and have 1D-1M-2M to show the two suited Diamond Major hand and then see how that compares in the BBO games, where maybe the sample size will give us a hint which approach is better.

(This isn't something that could be simulated by someone far more skilled than me, is it ?)

I think you are reinventing the wheel here, and the opposite approach is more fruitful. Move the maximum unbalanced hands to the 3-level responses, so that 2♠ is either the crappy 11-12 balanced hand or the crappy 11-13 unbalanced hand. You usually don't get the auction to yourself when responder is also weak, so you tend to not go past your safety level this way.

[ulven]

I use, as many already know, the approach of putting 5M332 in 1D or 1NT. But we remove unbalanced hands with 4M from 1D,so if there's a raise, it's always a balanced hand. This structure has been tested for years now against world class opponents and works just fine. As always, a lot of people doesn't believe that, which is just fine :-).

[shugart24]

 ulven, on 2024-August-01, 15:34, said:

I use, as many already know, the approach of putting 5M332 in 1D or 1NT. But we remove unbalanced hands with 4M from 1D,so if there's a raise, it's always a balanced hand. This structure has been tested for years now against world class opponents and works just fine. As always, a lot of people doesn't believe that, which is just fine :-).

I think this is one reason I liked moving away from precision and to MCIS !

Assuming you are playing a strong club with 5 card Majors, Where do you put the 4x6y hand with 11-15 HCP?

[shugart24]

 DavidKok, on 2024-August-01, 10:20, said:

I think you are reinventing the wheel here, and the opposite approach is more fruitful. Move the maximum unbalanced hands to the 3-level responses, so that 2♠ is either the crappy 11-12 balanced hand or the crappy 11-13 unbalanced hand. You usually don't get the auction to yourself when responder is also weak, so you tend to not go past your safety level this way.

Thanks...we will try and see how the approach we are using plays out against other players when we play on-line, at least to get some empirical evidence...If Responder has a weak hand with 4 Spades, say 6 or 7 HCP, your approach could end up as 1D -1S-3S with an 8 card fit and 20-21 HCP, which I suppose might be ok, but maybe not.

I also wonder if the approach one takes should be a function of whether one is playing Masterpoints or Imps - I rarely played IMPS when I was playing

[ulven]

Assuming you are playing a strong club with 5 card Majors, Where do you put the 4x6y hand with 11-15 HCP?

2M shows opening hand, 4M & 5+m. Sounds unplayable but I have played that in various partnerships since early 2000. I can attest it's a winner.

[shugart24]

 ulven, on 2024-August-02, 11:14, said:

Assuming you are playing a strong club with 5 card Majors, Where do you put the 4x6y hand with 11-15 HCP?

2M shows opening hand, 4M & 5+m. Sounds unplayable but I have played that in various partnerships since early 2000. I can attest it's a winner.

That's interesting . we use 2H to show positive response with 4 hearts and 5+m to partner's opening 1C bid and we use 1c-2NT to show 4 Spades with 5 plus minor. A relay asks which minor. SO you are giving up the preempt 2M bid, as am I over partner's 1C.

can you show me the responses to, say partner opening 2H, ?

what is your 2C opening bid ? and where do you put your (any) 4441 or 5440 hands with 11-15


(1C-2S shows balanced 8-11 for us)

[ulven]

Look up my partners comments in other recent threads, Owen Lien.