[mycroft]

Interesting ruling from the regional today. Luckily no matter what we did, it wasn't going to affect the result of the match or, really, the result on the board (all legitimate roads lead to 5♦+1, the score at the other table; there was no possibility of a revoke, ...). But I don't know what the book ruling *is*, or where I should find it.

The director gets called to the table after the lead to trick 11. Declarer has two cards in hand (and one on the table), LHO has three, but dummy has two and RHO four. Simple, right? It was a 14-12, they didn't count their cards, Law 13. But no!

Both dummy and RHO swear they counted their cards, and I and the other players believe them.

They did find a card on the floor at some point, which RHO said must be theirs, so it was put into their hand. But they think that it must have fallen while putting dummy down - when we restored the "found" card to dummy (surprisingly, it had not been played by RHO), finished the hand, and then looked at it, she says that yes, that was the hand she bid.

Law 13B says "originally". But originally, the deck was 4x13. It was only later that a card migrated from one had to another. No defective trick.

I'm sure I'm missing something simple and book. But what?

[pescetom]

If you remember, I had a problem somewhat similar early this year: Declarer had played one of LHO's discards, or something like that.

[axman]

 mycroft, on 2024-August-13, 21:55, said:

They did find a card on the floor at some point, which RHO said must be theirs, so it was put into their hand.

There is a thing called antecedent. When there is more than one theirs it is necessary and imperative to instead utilize NS or EW, as well as when relevant identify declarer.

When RHO says states that the card is theirs (distinct from it is his) and puts the card in his hand it leads to the belief that there is skepticism of the facts that needs to be resolved.

[mycroft]

Yes, a bit confusing. Funny, after 11 hours directing and an hour commute home, how one's english can become a little imprecise.

If you're playing the "no singular they" or "'he' is the pronoun for unspecified single gender in English" games I will send you to Shakespeare or to the Victorians believing English should work like Latin (not the most egregious opinion the Victorians held, I will admit), respectively.

Also, I know for a fact that "he" would be more inaccurate than "they", so there's that.

And everyone was specified - by their relationship to declarer. Sure, in that sentence specifically, "they" generally (but I bet dummy and RHO) saw a card on the floor, and "they" (properly anteceded as "RHO said...") said it belonged to RHO. Imprecise, but I'm pretty certain understandable, especially considering the rest of the paragraph (where "we" moved the card back from RHO's hand to dummy's).

Any thought on whether there's a Law that applies?

[pescetom]

I thought it was unusually understandable considering the author and the inherent difficulty of explanation

I don't think there's a Law that applies, much as in that other situation where someone held and actually played a card belonging to an opponent. It seems easier than that one to rule, though, I would reason that the spirit of the Law is in 13B. Yes that specifically excludes an initial correct board or deal, but it's still as close as the Laws come.

I would ask the same question as in another recent discussion: any good reason why the Director should not look first at the hand diagram, if available?

[mycroft]

 pescetom, on 2024-August-14, 09:47, said:

I thought it was unusually understandable considering the author and the inherent difficulty of explanation

Well, that is the politest way I've been insulted in years. Now, I won't say it's *inaccurate*...

Quote

I would ask the same question as in another recent discussion: any good reason why the Director should not look first at the hand diagram, if available?

Ah, innocent Europeans, missing the obvious explanation: it was the finals of a knockout (bottom bracket, 3/4 playoff), with hand-dealt boards. It had been played at the other table, but expecting *them* to remember what the hand looked like was probably a lost cause.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2024-August-14, 19:52, said:

Well, that is the politest way I've been insulted in years. Now, I won't say it's *inaccurate*...

I would call it a backhand compliment.
I've always figured that if my Spanish or Shakespear was better then you and I could converse fabulously

[jillybean]

mycroft, on 2024-August-14, 19:52, said:

Well, that is the politest way I've been insulted in years. Now, I won't say it's *inaccurate*...

Ah, innocent Europeans, missing the obvious explanation: it was the finals of a knockout (bottom bracket, 3/4 playoff), with hand-dealt boards. It had been played at the other table, but expecting *them* to remember what the hand looked like was probably a lost cause.

And how much does this cost the players to shuffle-deal and play? Good grief, which brackets use pre dealt boards?

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-August-15, 14:40, said:

And how much does this cost the players to shuffle-deal and play? Good grief, which brackets use pre dealt boards?

Be careful, that's the thin end of the wedge.
If you want the boards to be pre-dealt, then what's next, bidding on a tablet rather than messing around with bidding boxes and trays?
And if you accept that (gasp), then why not play on the tablet than messing around with cards and the related cheating opportunities complications?

[jillybean]

Apologies, a little off topic here.
I am surprised COVID didn’t force the game to be conducted on players personal tablets. Cards and bidding boxes are gross.
(Don’t give me the crap that the demographic is too old to use technology. After the initial pushback everyone would love it, adjust brightness, font size, accessibility options for players and so on.)

Perhaps Mpox will force the issue, get ready.

[mycroft]

If cards and bidding boxes are gross, but COVID, which is airborne and is not (often) transmitted by contact with stuff like "cards and bidding boxes" has the reaction to anything effective against airborne pathogens that we currently have in bridge, then mpox, bird flu, and the rest are no-hopers. We're just dead.

Yes, I do wear a mask to tournaments (and club games). Yes, I do get comments (but just "why are you" or "I can't understand because I read lips" and the odd "it's impolite". The really crazy one was outside in Victoria from more than one person who were claiming that masks are a global conspiracy to make *them* sick. And I guess the return of "masking is trying to hide from facial recognition, which means it's illegal if it's anywhere near anything illegal" (or you're a darker shade of pale, or...) Which, well, okay, there are already places some of my family can't safely go, guess it's now personal.) Yes, your opinion of my decision is absolutely worth the paper it is printed on. Oh wait, it's not even written? Okay then. Why do you ask?

[pescetom]

 mycroft, on 2024-August-20, 13:06, said:

If cards and bidding boxes are gross, but COVID, which is airborne and is not (often) transmitted by contact with stuff like "cards and bidding boxes" has the reaction to anything effective against airborne pathogens that we currently have in bridge, then mpox, bird flu, and the rest are no-hopers. We're just dead.

Yes, I do wear a mask to tournaments (and club games). Yes, I do get comments (but just "why are you" or "I can't understand because I read lips" and the odd "it's impolite". The really crazy one was outside in Victoria from more than one person who were claiming that masks are a global conspiracy to make *them* sick. And I guess the return of "masking is trying to hide from facial recognition, which means it's illegal if it's anywhere near anything illegal" (or you're a darker shade of pale, or...) Which, well, okay, there are already places some of my family can't safely go, guess it's now personal.) Yes, your opinion of my decision is absolutely worth the paper it is printed on. Oh wait, it's not even written? Okay then. Why do you ask?

The provocation here about cards and bidding boxes was I think more related to the health of bridge than to to the health of it's elderly players, important though that is. But I suspect there will be masks again here soon.
As for "hiding facial recognition" ROTFL, given that partners should not even notice each other (screens or not) and that the pairs most incriminated by chatter in the bar seemed to have no problems doing their thing behind masks. Yes f2f bridge offers an opportunity to scrutinize an opponent in a difficult situation, but this is already rightly limited by Law and I am happy to see it further reduced or eliminated, be it by screens or even masks.

[jillybean]

Cards and bidding boxes are gross. I'd be much happier using my personal device.

That being said, we are painfully slow at embracing new technology and all of the benefits that go with it. The reduction in equipment, set up, storage and transportation costs would not be insignificant for clubs and tournaments. The game would flow more smoothly, no dropped cards, bids or plays out of turn, no passing the bridgemate around the table for everyone to give their analysis of the results.
Huge benefits for those players with sight, hearing or dexterity impairments.

Why aren't we using tablets at the table. We have not even started utilizing the players phones for the scoring.

[sanst]

 jillybean, on 2024-August-21, 19:32, said:

Cards and bidding boxes are gross. I'd be much happier using my personal device.
[...]
Why aren't we using tablets at the table. We have not even started utilizing the players phones for the scoring.

That's not so easy as you might think. I don't know about your club, but our average age is over seventy, with quite a few octogenarians and even a centenarian. A few members don't use computer, tablet or smartphone at all, quite a few can just use email and go to a website. These are certainly not keen on learning to play bridge on a tablet or phone. The will be others who still want to have cards in their hands. Even quite a few world class players were happy that they could again play 'normal' bridge, with cards and biding boxes, after the pandemic.
Then there is the need to establish a very stable network at your club. You also have to provide for emergencies, like empty batteries, failing connections, mistakes in using the tablet and the program and the like.
Next you have to decide whether the players can use their own devices or that you provide these. Using their own devices means that the program must run on different operating systems, Ios, Android and Windows at least, and also on quite old versions of these platforms. Quite a few people, certainly elderly, do not replace their device every couple of years but keep using it till it fails beyond repair. I've replaced my Ipad only after seven years and Apple did support it for six years, but that's a very long time. Many of the tablets and phones will not be properly updated or will not have any support.
The problems arising from using your own device can be avoided by using tablets provided by the club. But that's an expensive solution. A decent tablet will cost somewhere between $/€/£ 100...200 or more. For our club of 80+ members the cost would be somewhere over €10.000, more than double of the price of a dealing machine. And, in contrast to such a machine, they have to be replaced in probably five years if only because the batteries will fail. You also have to maintain and update these and charge them every time. Since the club is run by volunteers that might be a serious problem. You can't charge all at the same time, so somebody has a full time job doing this.
Any program should be able to communicate with your website and probably the national bridge union too. It should also be very versatile, pairs, teams, MP's, IMP's should pose no problem and it should provide a extensive set of movements. The program from the Dutch union has an abundant set for all kinds of tournaments and matches and you can also import new ones or make your own. I, for one, would expect a tablet based bridge program to be as versatile as the one we use now.
I don't think that the market at the moment is large enough to develop, maintain and support such a system at acceptable costs. It's certainly possible to make a bridge program for Ios and Android, but it will probably not be good enough to satisfy the demands of clubs worldwide.
Last: if you use cards and biding boxes, you only need scoring forms in case your digital system fails. I know, it's a long time ago you did the scoring by hand, but it can be done and the members can play. It has been done at our club maybe once or twice in over ten years, but we didn't have to send the players home because the computer said 'NO'.

[pescetom]

 sanst, on 2024-August-22, 08:01, said:

That's not so easy as you might think. I don't know about your club, but our average age is over seventy, with quite a few octogenarians and even a centenarian. A few members don't use computer, tablet or smartphone at all, quite a few can just use email and go to a website. These are certainly not keen on learning to play bridge on a tablet or phone. The will be others who still want to have cards in their hands. Even quite a few world class players were happy that they could again play 'normal' bridge, with cards and biding boxes, after the pandemic.
Then there is the need to establish a very stable network at your club. You also have to provide for emergencies, like empty batteries, failing connections, mistakes in using the tablet and the program and the like.
Next you have to decide whether the players can use their own devices or that you provide these. Using their own devices means that the program must run on different operating systems, Ios, Android and Windows at least, and also on quite old versions of these platforms. Quite a few people, certainly elderly, do not replace their device every couple of years but keep using it till it fails beyond repair. I've replaced my Ipad only after seven years and Apple did support it for six years, but that's a very long time. Many of the tablets and phones will not be properly updated or will not have any support.
The problems arising from using your own device can be avoided by using tablets provided by the club. But that's an expensive solution. A decent tablet will cost somewhere between $/€/£ 100...200 or more. For our club of 80+ members the cost would be somewhere over €10.000, more than double of the price of a dealing machine. And, in contrast to such a machine, they have to be replaced in probably five years if only because the batteries will fail. You also have to maintain and update these and charge them every time. Since the club is run by volunteers that might be a serious problem. You can't charge all at the same time, so somebody has a full time job doing this.
Any program should be able to communicate with your website and probably the national bridge union too. It should also be very versatile, pairs, teams, MP's, IMP's should pose no problem and it should provide a extensive set of movements. The program from the Dutch union has an abundant set for all kinds of tournaments and matches and you can also import new ones or make your own. I, for one, would expect a tablet based bridge program to be as versatile as the one we use now.
I don't think that the market at the moment is large enough to develop, maintain and support such a system at acceptable costs. It's certainly possible to make a bridge program for Ios and Android, but it will probably not be good enough to satisfy the demands of clubs worldwide.
Last: if you use cards and biding boxes, you only need scoring forms in case your digital system fails. I know, it's a long time ago you did the scoring by hand, but it can be done and the members can play. It has been done at our club maybe once or twice in over ten years, but we didn't have to send the players home because the computer said 'NO'.

There are people who see only problems and people who see solutions. You seem to be in the former group. I think most of your arguments are unfounded or have already proven not to be decisive. And yes our clubs have much the same demographics.

Just to cite a few on simple fact basis, Windows devices are not relevant. Android version dependencies no issue, IoS is more problematic but nobody forces players to use it. Every player has a smart phone and knows more or less how to use it, most also have at least some experience of BBO or other platforms. During covid we sourced decent Samsung-clone 10 inch tablets for a little over 100 dollars each and as you rightly say 5 years of problem free life sounds about right: so 20 dollars per year. Ordinary club tournaments can cheerfully be played on personal devices, so any club hardware costs are only related to a few tablets for serious inter-club competition (or rental to players who prefer this to a personal device). There are reasonably priced off the shelf solutions for storing, charging and even transporting multiple tablets.
It is child's play (and relatively low cost) to ensure a reliable network in a club these days.

Sure, the software needs to be versatile and well integrated into the fabric of your RA. Some countries like Hungary are already playing this way at RA level, others like EBU and Italy have a sufficiently well defined software infrastructure after covid to be able to make the switch quite painlessly. Italy is currently half way there, as club tournaments are administered by TD using the flexible RA program but with tournament data on the RA server and score entry plus system cards in the RA app on players personal devices (Android or iOS). So it would be relatively straightforward to move bidding and play to the app.

[mycroft]

I am reminded of way back in 1995 when Harris got in as Premier of Ontario, and his Minister for Transportation thought it would be a good way to save money if they removed all the emergency services phone boxes from the highways (and all the people who ensured they worked), because "everyone has cell phones, right?" Well, yes, if you're rich and live in Toronto, yeah. (at the time there were many places on the highways that didn't *have* cell service, never mind ubiquitous cell phone ownership).

Not criticising Jillybean as much as that guy, because that guy either should have known better, should have asked his staff before spouting off on "what was clearly obvious" (in his world), or should have been replaced by a MPP who would. That was his job. In this case, she neither has the staff nor is it her job to know. But I deleted a response that was almost identical to sanst's before posting because it was too snarky (yes, much more than sanst).

And I'm sure it can work. But seriously, why? If you're upset about grot on the cards and the bidding boxes (and one more thing, if the club owns the tablets, they'll be as bad as the cards and boxes really fast!) you can wear gloves, just as if you're upset about "con crud" from breathing "didn't know they were sick" people's air and droplets, you can wear a mask - something I don't see many do. Or you can wash your hands often or use the alcohol rub (again, something I don't see the complainers do).

And frankly, 90% of the crud is "others' dead skin cells". Which I will absolutely agree is grotty. But is it a health hazard?

For NA-level events, where the added bonuses are "time clocks, auto-vugraph, and retro suspicious activity checking", and you can do "virtual screens" like they do in the USBF, yeah, I can see it. In the club?

(and I'd love to have a scorer-on-the-phone. Because I think that would work, and it seems the "OMG cell phones should be called c- phones" brigade has lost the war, finally, even in the ACBL. Maybe in 10 years.)

[jillybean]

The shared cards and bidding boxes do make me cringe. Watching players cough into their hands, wipe their nose and lick their fingers to fan the cards is gross.
I'm not too worried for myself but I do think about others at the club and people in my family should I bring anything home. I have a friend who has "long covid", unlucky perhaps but her life has been changed drastically for the worse. I should be more careful, I try to remember to wash my hand thoroughly after the session.

Health reasons aside, if the game was conducted electronically the benefits in cost savings, time and accessibility can't be small , as I've said upthread.

For those who think you can't teach old dogs new tricks, I think you are underestimating the Octogenarians. I obviously don't know the numbers but those who I have come across at the Club have all the technology, play on BBO, trade stocks and surf the web.
Hell, I have even persuaded some players to sit North and use the Bridgemate. That's easier now that we have predealt boards. Players quite rightly, hated entering the hand records. If you can learn to use a Bridgemate you'll be fine playing online.

Of course there will be push back, that is just human nature. Remember the outcry when travellers and bidding pads were removed ?

Has anyone any experience with the Bridge Plus More machine, or similar?

https://bridgeplusmore.com/

[sanst]

It's no problem if you want to play with tablets - and there are Microsoft Surface tablets that run on Windows, pescetom, not to mention Linux ones - since there's online bridge. There are clubs here that organise games on Stepbridge, the online bridge of the Dutch union. But I don't see people coming to a club with their tablets, because they can also play from their home sitting in their favourite chair.
It would mean the end of the bridge club as we know it, as a social gathering in which bridge plays a part. That is a serious matter. Here, and I'm sure in many more western countries, loneliness among the elderly is a serious problem. Children are living a hundred miles or more away, are anyway busy with jobs, kids and their own hobbies, and have little time for the parents. Besides, most of us also want to socialize with members of their own age, not just with youngsters. The bridge club, although with grotty cards, sniffing and sneezing and all other unwelcome sounds and habits, can provide just that.
I can't play bridge on a smartphone, a 10" tablet is an absolute minimum. I would rather play on a laptop, with a good sized screen and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Me old eyes, you see...
Jellybean, you just got a dealing machine. Must have cost an arm and a leg. Want to get rid of it already?

[jillybean]

People will come to the bridge club with their devices for exactly that reason. Social, duplicate bridge.
I host a "bridge discussion" session before the weekly game. We sit around and discuss last week's problems hands, conventions, carding and so on.
Some people bring their devices and we load last weeks hands on BBO to rebid and replay. We use predealt hands to practice conventions. It's growing in popularity, stay tuned.
After the bridge discussion we have lunch together and then go and play with those nasty old cards and bidding boxes.

Failing eyesight can make it challenging to see that card, especially the ones played across from you. Are they 100cm away across the table?
On your device, ~30cm away or closer if you need to, we can have the card appear on a brightly lit screen. We can zoom in on that card for 3 seconds before flipping it over.
Ready to play from a suit? We can zoom in on the cards in that suit if you like.

I have a bridge friend for whom it is difficult and painful to hold and play cards. She is hoping electronic club bridge will be a reality before she has to give up the game.

sanst, on 2024-August-23, 02:17, said:

Jillybean, you just got a dealing machine. Must have cost an arm and a leg. Want to get rid of it already?

Haha, yes it did. I don't imagine that we will be getting rid of it any time soon but we have to dream and discover what is possible.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2024-August-23, 06:28, said:

People will come to the bridge club with their devices for exactly that reason. Social, duplicate bridge.
I host a "bridge discussion" session before the weekly game. We sit around and discuss last week's problems hands, conventions, carding and so on.
Some people bring their devices and we load last weeks hands on BBO to rebid and replay. We use predealt hands to practice conventions. It's growing in popularity, stay tuned.
After the bridge discussion we have lunch together and then go and play with those nasty old cards and bidding boxes.

Failing eyesight can make it challenging to see that card, especially the ones played across from you. Are they 100cm away across the table?
On your device, ~30cm away or closer if you need to, we can have the card appear on a brightly lit screen. We can zoom in on that card for 3 seconds before flipping it over.
Ready to play from a suit? We can zoom in on the cards in that suit if you like.

I have a bridge friend for whom it is difficult and painful to hold and play cards. She is hoping electronic club bridge will be a reality before she has to give up the game.

You could also add the players with mobility issues who are unable/unwilling to move (and all the others who are happy not to play crazy movements to compensate this), the players with aphasia who would be happier typing explanations, and others.

But a bigger issue even at club level (IMO) is the one that mycroft relegated to the top level, namely turning bridge into a fair and meaningful competition by eliminating illegal calls and plays, imposing virtual screens, hiding tempo, memorizing and scrutinizing player's actions, etc.
Only in this way can bridge become a real mind sport to compete with chess or go, rescinding any association with easy cheating and guaranteeing itself a future.

Not that I undervalue the argument about health implications and the related mutation of social sensibilities, cards are indeed gross. But where others see dead flesh behind the cards I see dead fair play (UI transmitted and exploited), and flinch all the same.