[jillybean]

---

MP

[mikeh]

a confident 5D. 4Th sear may have enough spades to want to bid 5S but he won’t have a lot of hcp and probably has a bad heart holding. Anyway, I’m doubling 5S.

Btw, the wildest hands I’ve ever held were all hand dealt. 5=8=0=0 and RHO opens Flannery in front of me. Jxxxx KJ10xxxxx void void (not the same hand!) and partner opened 1D and over my 1H bid jumped to 2S. Etc etc.

[jillybean]

The title of the post was deliberately facetious. The dealing machine has certainly brought life to the flat 10-12hcp hands, I am hearing more of "Those computer dealt hands!" with one or two players threatening to stop playing.

---

5♠E - 1 !
5♠W - 1
The rest played in 4,5,6♦ in the North.

I wish I had been playing.

[mycroft]

It would depend on the field and (as always) my agreement about preempts. 2nd favourable - interesting

My immediate reaction was 5♦, same as Mike. My second thought was "in a really good field, where I am an underdog, and when my partner might have a '1st, favourable' 2♥ call: 7♦. Make 'em guess." But that would have to be a field where I could almost count on everyone finding 6♠ with or without partner's opening. And yeah, that ♣K (or diamond void in partner!) could be all the difference.

But never 6, or 4.

With the real auction, that opening deserved to go for its life. And by that I mean "-200 into -140". I am a fan of aggressive preempts, especially first seat, but that's a hospital pass vul (unfav, no less, so -500 into -430 too!) *My partners* never show up with 5-card support and 14-all-working...

[jillybean]

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What is the threshold for a psych?

[DavidKok]

I would open 2♠ as East, and I would not overcall 3♥ as South. If East passes I prefer 1♥ to 2♥ as South.

[mycroft]

What's the threshold for a psych? Almost certainly much much higher than you are suggesting here.

As always, a reminder that certain clubs of some notoriety aside, a psych is not a call you wouldn't make, or even a call nobody at your club would make; it's not even "a clearly bad bid"; it is a gross and deliberate variation from *the pair's* methods.

I think it's dangerous, and deserved to have the South and West hands switched, but playing EHAA, for example, that is not only within system for a 2♠ opener, it is both *mandatory* (assuming you will open 5 counts - with the change from the GCC meaning we aren't hard-limited to 6-12) and *not the worst hand* that would open 2♠ (98654 QJ5 Q3 J54 anyone?).

Playing an old system with one partner, that would have been a *good* 2♦ Multi opener, given our 1-7 range. May still not have made the bid first seat unfavourable, but it was clearly within system.

"But it could easily go disastrously wrong!" Sure - if you can penalize them. Which many can't, and many more won't. Got a problem with these calls? Bring back the axe. Oh, but that damages your beautiful system to find all your games? Pay out to the ultra-aggressive when they throw you. You don't get to call the cops to stop the opponents from taking advantage of your deliberately-introduced system weaknesses, unless it's something the regulators believe is too hard for *anybody* to defend against.

[mw64ahw]

Like David I'd open 2♠, Pass as East and as West know we had enough for game. I'm likely bidding 2N asking for shape/strength knowing there is an outside chance of a slam if partner is max.

[DavidKok]

 mycroft, on 2024-October-20, 10:34, said:

Got a problem with these calls? Bring back the axe.

Sorry for jumping on a single point in an otherwise excellent post, but this is a common misconception. There are one or two pairs who play penalty doubles over our preempts, partly because they know my style. Against them we preempt more aggressively (though I don't think I've actually ever held a hand against them where I thought "well, normally I would not preempt this, but let us do it now". So it's more of a theoretical exercise). Giving up one of the most effective and valuable tools on competitive auctions - the takeout double - lowers their average score if we preempt. So we want to increase the frequency of that happening, even if it means slightly increased risk for us.

[mycroft]

Absolutely agree. Which is why the immediately following sentences were:

Quote

Oh, but that damages your beautiful system to find all your games? Pay out to the ultra-aggressive when they throw you.

[obligatory reference to [other city/country] Fishbein goes here]

[DavidKok]

Sorry, I misunderstood that part of your post. I'm glad we agree!

[jillybean]

 mycroft, on 2024-October-20, 10:34, said:

What's the threshold for a psych? Almost certainly much much higher than you are suggesting here.

As always, a reminder that certain clubs of some notoriety aside, a psych is not a call you wouldn't make, or even a call nobody at your club would make; it's not even "a clearly bad bid"; it is a gross and deliberate variation from *the pair's* methods.

I think it's dangerous, and deserved to have the South and West hands switched, but playing EHAA, for example, that is not only within system for a 2♠ opener, it is both *mandatory* (assuming you will open 5 counts - with the change from the GCC meaning we aren't hard-limited to 6-12) and *not the worst hand* that would open 2♠ (98654 QJ5 Q3 J54 anyone?).

Playing an old system with one partner, that would have been a *good* 2♦ Multi opener, given our 1-7 range. May still not have made the bid first seat unfavourable, but it was clearly within system.

"But it could easily go disastrously wrong!" Sure - if you can penalize them. Which many can't, and many more won't. Got a problem with these calls? Bring back the axe. Oh, but that damages your beautiful system to find all your games? Pay out to the ultra-aggressive when they throw you. You don't get to call the cops to stop the opponents from taking advantage of your deliberately-introduced system weaknesses, unless it's something the regulators believe is too hard for *anybody* to defend against.

Let me rephrase the question
Club players tend to get upset and like to cry "psych" at anything unusual.
In your club game do you allowing 2S on
Q86532 Q6 8 JT52 , 98654 QJ5 Q3 J54 ?

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-October-20, 14:39, said:

Let me rephrase the question
Club players tend to get upset and like to cry "psych" at anything unusual.
In your club game do you allowing 2S on
Q86532 Q6 8 JT52 , 98654 QJ5 Q3 J54 ?

You induce me to bite with two clear examples... the first is not a psyche, the second is (assuming an agreement of let's say 6-10 usually 6+ cards).
More difficult might be one of:
Q86532 76 8 JT52, 98654 QJ5 Q3 Q54
I can live with the second, for me the first is a psyche (gross deviation of strength)... but most of my colleagues seem blind to that so long as the length is there.

[mycroft]

The first one (sure, at unfav, but in general) is minimum, but boring to the point of mediocrity. Anyone who has a problem with it will be shown the regulations and told that others bid differently, and now you know for next time, don't you? (please review my history here, where I have repeatedly given that answer to newer players who were hit by a crazy preempt/overcall of 2♣ for the first time.)

The second - if it's Alerted as "5-12, all hands with a 5+card suit are opened, 95% of them are opened 2 of the longest suit", well, we might complain the *system* isn't something we should bring to a weak club game, but the bid is absolutely within the description.

One thing I will note, however (and yes, this I *do* have an issue with, and I've mentioned it several times as well) - it's only Alertable with the new regs because it could be 12 HCP. The shape, and the suit quality (lack of) requirements, *do not make the call Alertable*. You need to know their style? Better ask. You didn't realize this is a question you should be asking? Better learn.

Should we protect our poor club players from this "weird stuff" or "over-aggressive calls"? Maybe your (non-sanctioned, weaker, play in this club to avoid the experts and "all the bridge laywers") club, or the club in Calgary which is more about the food and the conversation than the bridge, or definitely, if I'm a fill-in in the NLM game I was invited to give the lesson to this morning. In an ACBL sanctioned club playing an Open game on the Open chart, then no, I think that's what you paid your money for. There's a club with an open game that plays Basic+ the other side of the city; go play there if you have a problem with aggressive preempts (or openers) (that are nowhere near at the edge of actual legality).