[Shugart23]

If opponents open 1Nt with 15-17, 14-16, or 16-18 and you hear partner double for penalty, I’d like to hear how people play it, especially when you have a bust hand -say 7 diamonds and 4 hearts and 5 Hcp. I know some pairs play partners double as ‘equal values’, but I’ve never played it that way. Do you pass80-90 percent of time? Do you use any bids like Stayman or transfers? When opponents bid 1Nt, we are using HELLO in the direct seat (and take out in the pass out seat). I would appreciate hearing what are other people doing when it goes 1Nt-double-pass-? Thank you

[DavidKok]

• It is common to play a double as something artificial over a strong NT. Almost any weak meaning is more frequent than a penalty double, and you avoid this guesswork of what to do opposite.
  
• Many partnerships have agreements about responder's pass in this situation. In particular, it is common for pass to force opener to redouble or bid. Against that agreement the fourth hand is off the hook, and you should only bid if you wish to play yourself.
  
• Personally I recommend making these doubles approximately 15+ regardless of strength of the 1NT opening. I know 'top of the range' is popular but I find it impractical.
  
• Regarding continuations, I think natural has a lot going for it. It puts most pressure on the opponents in what it almost certain to be a competitive auction. You could swap in something more sophisticated, but it's a rare situation and likely won't gain even if it comes up.

[shugart24]

[quote name='DavidKok' timestamp='1746282619' post='1077630']

• It is common to play a double as something artificial over a strong NT. Almost any weak meaning is more frequent than a penalty double, and you avoid this guesswork of what to do opposite.
  
• Many partnerships have agreements about responder's pass in this situation. In particular, it is common for pass to force opener to redouble or bid. Against that agreement the fourth hand is off the hook, and you should only bid if you wish to play yourself.
  
• Personally I recommend making these doubles approximately 15+ regardless of strength of the 1NT opening. I know 'top of the range' is popular but I find it impractical.
  
• Regarding continuations, I think natural has a lot going for it. It puts most pressure on the opponents in what it almost certain to be a competitive auction. You could swap in something more sophisticated, but it's a rare situation and likely won't gain even if it comes up.

[/quote

Thanks . My double is only concerning the direct double over 1NT. In the direct seat we play Hello, so we are usually able to find a place when we want to compete. Are you saying you (and most advanced players) play the direct double as artificial and forcing with 15+ HCP and that you expect partner to make a natural bid, most of the time ? BTW, I don't know if it makes a difference, but I never play IMP scoring. I would be interested in hearing others comment as well.

[DavidKok]

No. I am saying that over a strong NT it is common for a direct double to be artificial and not promise particularly strong hands. Instead if you want to play a penalty double, I recommend setting the lower limit to 15 HCP or equivalent playing strength. Such a penalty double is not forcing.

In addition to the above, my opponents frequently play that 1NT-(X)-P* is forcing (the pass forces opener to act), where X is penalties. This relieves fourth seat of a duty to scramble with sufficiently weak hands.

[awm]

Penalty double of strong notrump has made something of a comeback in the US in recent years (after a long period where most people played artificial doubles). The reason for this has to do with a greater frequency of upgrades being made on hands with less than strong notrump values (but compensating playing strength in the form of suit length); for example a lot of US experts started opening 1NT (supposedly 15-17) with 13 points and a six-card minor. Against this sort of notrump opening the penalty double has a lot more value (since you are both more likely to have the strength to double and more likely to have the majority of values when you do double). Arguably there is a disclosure problem with this sort of bidding, but I think in regular US expert fields people are aware of this despite the non-disclosure.

Anyway, some pointers as to how to continue after penalty doubles:

1. Double should start around 15+ points. Don't double lighter just because opponents open 1NT lighter -- this is a common mistake that can lead to your side getting in trouble more often while also making it harder to find your games.
2. Don't play "systems on" after the double. Notrump systems are designed for bidding to the right contract when partner has shown a limited balanced hand. Here, you should be passing on the vast majority of hands that have values, so a lot of the "systems on" sequences are useless. Also, partner's double doesn't promise a balanced hand nor does it really have a limited range.
3. As to what you should actually play after (1NT)-X-(Pass), there are two times when you don't want to pass. First, if you have a really bad hand with a long suit (like 0-4 points and minimum five cards) you can suggest your suit as an alternative contract. Notice that it's good to not be playing "systems on" since you can get to play 2♣! Second, if you have some values but extreme distribution, you may do better playing game rather than defending. Typically the approach people take is that 2NT shows a game-going two-suiter (at least 5/5) and three of a suit shows a decent 6+ in the bid suit (not much else) and invites game.
4. What does come up a lot is that opponents use some run-out bid after the double. Presuming that their run-out bid shows the suit they named (typically it will, possibly with another suit as well), it's very useful to play the first double after they run as takeout rather than penalty. Note that in some sense this says "I don't have a penalty double of this suit, but I'm willing to defend if you do" and for advancer it promises some values. If they run from this takeout double, further doubles are penalty.

[mycroft]

I doubt people have changed their minds from three months ago. I know I haven't.

[mw64ahw]

I also play a modified Hello with X as points or a running minor. Usually natural or as awm mentions; I think the one time I did Pass after 1N-X-P partner turned up with all the points.

[Shugart23]

mw64ahw, on 2025-May-03, 10:55, said:

I also play a modified Hello with X as points or a running minor. Usually natural or as awm mentions; I think the one time I did Pass after 1N-X-P partner turned up with all the points.

so, when bidding goes 1NT -X by you - pass -? Are you expecting partner to pass most of the time because a) you are on lead and can run your minor or b) you have points and think you can set

[steviebabe]

Is the logic of this discussion that it is better to abandon the idea of 1NT(15-17)X as being for penalties, and to use it as TO? This would need to be used with caution as partner may have a bust and may not appreciate having to negotiate a two level contract in a six or seven card fit with c15 points in the dummy!

[mikeh]

steviebabe, on 2026-June-23, 02:20, said:

Is the logic of this discussion that it is better to abandon the idea of 1NT(15-17)X as being for penalties, and to use it as TO? This would need to be used with caution as partner may have a bust and may not appreciate having to negotiate a two level contract in a six or seven card fit with c15 points in the dummy!

Against most players who play 15-17, the penalty double will arise infrequently and will quite often fail, because the average club level player in NA (if not elsewhere) will virtually always have 15-17 hcp.

There is a concept in the game known as declarer’s advantage. It arises from a number of factors, including: the opening lead…unless one has a good sequence, say QJ109, the opening lead, made after no bidding other than 1N is always risky and often surrenders a trick or a tempo. Another issue is the need to and the difficulty of conveying useful information between the defenders. Even sophisticated signalling methods are imperfect…and give away information to declarer as well as partner. Plus declarer can sometimes falsecard in a way that foils or at least impairs the defender’s signalling. Declarer gets to play deceptively while, on most hands, it’s dangerous for the defenders to lie to each other.

So if opener has roughly 16 points, even if we have 16 ourselves, our side rates to hold 50% or fewer of the cards more times than not, so the odds favour declarer. Furthermore, my main pet peeve, back when I played penalty doubles, was that the more certain I was of setting 1N, the more likely partner was to pull the double…which makes sense. The more hcp I hold, the fewer partner will usually hold and the more tempted he will be to pull.

In addition, theorists discovered useful alternate meanings for double. I currently use double to show a 4 card major and a longer minor, but there are other useful gadgets out there. Imo, the double as I play it is more common than my holding a penalty double, even ignoring the issues I describe above.

But….and thus is a big but…..a lot of top players, especially those under 50, stretch their ostensibly strong notrump, particularly in third seat. In one of my partnerships, we have the agreement that if we’re playing a pro apparently under the age of 50, we play a penalty double of a third seat ‘strong’ 1N. See awm’s excellent post above.

Btw, your last point: I do not agree. While partner may not like declaring after he pulls, most modern takeout methods will usually survive. Imo, one should NOT compete over a strong notrump unless one has a decent 6+ suit or a two suited hand. The 6 card suit means that one normally has an 8+ and often even a 7 card fit survives due to your length Av2 suited hand markedly increases the likelihood of having, and being able to find, a playable fit. Of course, sometimes everything is foul up that’s just part of the game and hardly unique to defending 1N openings.