[mike777]

Still learning this thing.
What are your agreements/understanding using two spades as range or clubs over a strong no trump?

Opponents passing
1NT-2S-2NT-3C-?
Automatic pass or bid 3NT with good club holdings?

[DavidKok]

Automatic pass. Responder wanted to play in clubs, and we've shown a minimum.

If you use 2♠ as only showing clubs, opener can base their answer on degree of fit for clubs rather than generic strength. This lets 2♠ function as a game try in clubs, among other things.
If you use 2♠ as only asking range, opener won't have to consider degree of fit for clubs at all. There is no confusion.
By combining the two into one bid you can free up some of the immediate 2NT+ responses, but in return you have to sacrifice accuracy on the clubs-showing aspect. By necessity, because 2♠ can be bid on hands that purely care about opener's range, 2NT has to show all point minima (as 2NT is the safety level on those hands) and 3♣ has to show all other hands (as 3♣ might be our intended contract if responder has a weak-ish clubs hand). This means opener can no longer include 'degree of fit for clubs' in their evaluation criteria.

Long story short: responder uses this sequence as a signoff in 3♣. Opener is not allowed to evaluate their hand further. There is no game try in clubs in this structure - this is the cost you pay for putting multiple meanings in 2♠. You may choose to flip this, but now there is no way to run to 3♣ when responder has a sub-invitational hand.

[jillybean]

I like NT auctions, other than these minor sequences. Range ask is just a fancy name for a balanced invite?
If I hold a long minor it's transfer or 3nt for me.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2025-September-24, 11:33, said:

I like NT auctions, other than these minor sequences. Range ask is just a fancy name for a balanced invite?
If I hold a long minor it's transfer or 3nt for me.

My f2f new partner loves playing it, so I go along. They agreed to play a bunch of my favorites, we compromise. We just won an open pairs local sectional tournament so...

Funny enough almost no system level stuff came up and all I remember are my mistakes.

what I really would love to learn and play is a bunch of this unbalanced diamond 2/1 type stuff that many posters , discuss online here. I believe Chip Martel plays it now, and anything he plays and many posters here discuss is well worth learning from. I don't know the system.

[DavidKok]

Very briefly: the idea is simply to take all the balanced hands that open 1♦, and open them 1♣ instead. This has several consequences:

• A 1♦ opening now promises 5(+) cards, excepting some awkward 4441-type distributions. This makes it better both in and out of competition, and allows for some very scientific followup schemes as the 1NT rebid is now idle.
  
• A 1♣ opening promises 2(+), but more accurately it is now "clubs or balanced". It is much more frequently 2 or 3 cards compared to more natural 1♣ openings. This makes it more vulnerable to interference.
  
• Often this is paired with an effective and sophisticated scheme over the 1♣ opening, such as Transfer Walsh or Dutch Doubleton, or even some fleshed out versions of standard Walsh. This gives the system a two-pronged approach: when we open 1♣ we get to use a fancy system, when we open 1♦ the hand is already described quite well.

In the context of Dutch Doubleton I call the second and third point together a 'double shift' from natural: we play a sophisticated system over 1♣, and to get most value out of that we want to open 1♣ more (especially on balanced hands, where we often don't want to play in diamonds anyway). Conversely we open 1♣ more, so we need a better system to deal with the minor suit ambiguity - thankfully it's only more balanced hands in 1♣, so it's very manageable.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-September-24, 12:08, said:

My f2f new partner loves playing it, so I go along. They agreed to play a bunch of my favorites, we compromise. We just won an open pairs local sectional tournament so...

Funny enough almost no system level stuff came up and all I remember are my mistakes.

what I really would love to learn and play is a bunch of this unbalanced diamond 2/1 type stuff that many posters , discuss online here. I believe Chip Martel plays it now, and anything he plays and many posters here discuss is well worth learning from. I don't know the system.

Congratulations

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2025-September-24, 12:08, said:

what I really would love to learn and play is a bunch of this unbalanced diamond 2/1 type stuff that many posters , discuss online here. I believe Chip Martel plays it now, and anything he plays and many posters here discuss is well worth learning from. I don't know the system.

I think this is a far more compelling issue which deserves its own thread, rather than remaining as a drift here.
I have some questions of my own, but will wait until you reopen (or do it myself if necessary

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2025-September-24, 14:14, said:

Congratulations

Thanks, also played in the district finals flight B NAP with a last minute pick up partner. Just missed out on a free trip to the Nationals. We had many bidding misunderstandings and barely any system at all. I made so many mistakes. Defense was surprisingly good until the hand I under led an Ace hoping pard had the King.
The good news was they had it, even better she played and won the trick, the bad news was she returned the suit rather than give me a ruff. smile.

Another fun hand was where the opponents bid a bunch forcing us to have to control bid at the five level. I had bid hearts naturally, she had bid clubs, I tried 5spades, the opponents suit, we were running out of room. I was hoping she could control bid 6D showing the Ace and I would decide what to play in on the seven level.

Long hesitation, then 6C. I passed. I should have at least corrected to 6H but.....
She had the AD and 7C or 7H or 7NT made. Even funnier the opponents failed to follow when she pulled trump, then she ran my heart suit, the opponents ruffed in and she was cut off from about 7 more tricks....smile...

[mw64ahw]

My esoteric unbalanced ♦ is 3+; this means that hands such as 4135 are also moved into 1♦ with parts scores often played in a Moysian. I also use 1♦-1♠ as GI which allows early shape resolution. This has some beneficial outcomes for the 1♣ opening which is now less overloaded.

[AL78]

Many people in the circles I have frequented play McKendrick, in which 2♠ asks partner if they are good or bad for their 1NT, and a minor suit bid after opener's response shows a weak hand with a long minor.

http://www.gwilliams...ntions/234.html