[pilun]

---

East got to show 4-5-3-1.
3NT showed 7 SPs (QPs)
We count stiff kings as 1 SP (David Morgan's recommendation)
In our simple DCB, stop = 0 or 4+ SP (so none or AQ/AK(Q))
We switch to positive with singletons, so
4NT = H-y, S-y, D-y, C-y

so has to be the actual.
♦Q not needed so this time kontrol ask would work nicely as well.
(On the other hand, West might want to avoid 6♥ opposite xxxx, KJxxx, KQx, K)

A bit tougher in methods that ignore stiff kings, like KK relay.

[foobar]

awm doesn't discount stiffs, so wonder how KK-relay might do here with that option.

After 3!D - 3!H asks:

4C (4 controls) - 4D - 4H (DCB) - 5C (heart, spade, not QH). Note that the scan skips the second shortest suit. In this case, there's some ambiguity about KD or KC, but either should do on this hand.

[awm]

Easy for Sam and me of course:

1♥ - 1NT (GF relay or good invite with 5+♠)
2♥ (4♠) - 2♠ (GF relay)
3♦ (4531) - 3♥ (RP?)
4♣ (8) - 4♦ (relay)
4♥ (singleton honor in clubs) - 4♠ (relay)
5♥ (one top honor in each suit; K in hearts and Q in diamonds rather than vice-versa)

At this point responder knows all the cards, so 7♥ is clear.

[foobar]

awm, on 2026-June-27, 13:08, said:

Easy for Sam and me of course:

1♥ - 1NT (GF relay or good invite with 5+♠)
2♥ (4♠) - 2♠ (GF relay)
3♦ (4531) - 3♥ (RP?)
4♣ (8) - 4♦ (relay)
4♥ (singleton honor in clubs) - 4♠ (relay)
5♥ (one top honor in each suit; K in hearts and Q in diamonds rather than vice-versa)

At this point responder knows all the cards, so 7♥ is clear.

Adam,

It seems like you have reversed you scan order for the PCB? Do you scan the shortest first, then switch to the longest? Are there any other tweaks?

[pilun]

foobar, on 2026-June-27, 12:13, said:

awm doesn't discount stiffs, so wonder how KK-relay might do here with that option.

After 3!D - 3!H asks:

4C (4 controls) - 4D - 4H (DCB) - 5C (heart, spade, not QH). Note that the scan skips the second shortest suit. In this case, there's some ambiguity about KD or KC, but either should do on this hand.

♦K is not enough for 13.
Also in KK "A singleton king is not counted at all"

[mike777]

I don't play or know relay systems.
Certainly a clear victory for them..

In defense of us non relay Players I hope to bid an aggressive seven.

Granted I would not know if partner held the KD or not. I would not know if partner held three or four diamonds..


However if I know you are my tough opponents at the other table, it makes it easy to chance it..
😎🕵️
0

[awm]

foobar, on 2026-June-27, 15:28, said:

Adam,

It seems like you have reversed you scan order for the PCB? Do you scan the shortest first, then switch to the longest? Are there any other tweaks?

We've noticed that a singleton honour is often (not always, and not here) a disappointment to relayer. So it makes sense to show that by stopping early. This is the only relay resolution thing we've changed recently, although we have messed with our major suit sequences a bit too (in particular, we want relays to start with 1NT after the 1♠ opening, which has caused a bit of a shuffle since we also want many weak non-fitting hands to bid 1NT over 1♠).

[foobar]

awm, on 2026-June-28, 01:54, said:

We've noticed that a singleton honour is often (not always, and not here) a disappointment to relayer. So it makes sense to show that by stopping early. This is the only relay resolution thing we've changed recently, although we have messed with our major suit sequences a bit too (in particular, we want relays to start with 1NT after the 1♠ opening, which has caused a bit of a shuffle since we also want many weak non-fitting hands to bid 1NT over 1♠).

The 1N relay over 1♠ looks very interesting. Do you play 1♠ as the potential GFR over 1♥ in that case (same approach used by Tarzan)?

It will be interesting to know about your response schedule over 1♥ / 1♠. They use:

2♣: Any hand that can't immediately GF
2♦: Hearts, constructive
2♥: Good ♠ raise

Over 1♥:
1S: GFR
1N: Kaplan inversion (I think)
2♣: Any hand that can't immediate GF
2♦: Good ♥ raise

[awm]

foobar, on 2026-June-28, 09:39, said:

The 1N relay over 1♠ looks very interesting. Do you play 1♠ as the potential GFR over 1♥ in that case (same approach used by Tarzan)?

It will be interesting to know about your response schedule over 1♥ / 1♠. They use:

2♣: Any hand that can't immediately GF
2♦: Hearts, constructive
2♥: Good ♠ raise

Over 1♥:
1S: GFR
1N: Kaplan inversion (I think)
2♣: Any hand that can't immediate GF
2♦: Good ♥ raise

Our methods are quite different from this. We use the following:

1♠-1NT is any of:
(1) Weak hand with 0-1 spades (but not single-suited)
(2) Bad invite with 4+♥ and 2♠
(3) GF relay
1♠-2♣ is a good invite without a fit, or minimum GF balanced raise
1♠-2♦ is one of:
(1) Bad invite with 0-1 spades
(2) Constructive through bad invite with 0-3♥ and 2♠
(3) Bad invite with a 6+ suit (and less than three spades)
1♠-2♥ is a limit raise with 3+♠ or a slammish heart splinter

1♥-1♠ is like a forcing notrump (any number of spades, either weak with short hearts or up to a bad invite with at most 2♥)
1♥-1NT is either GF relay or a good invite with 5+♠
1♥-2♣ is a good invite with 0-4♠ and no fit, or a minimum GF balanced raise
1♥-2♦ is a limit raise with 3+♥

You can see that these responses are not very symmetric between 1♥ and 1♠. We very strongly prefer putting bad hands that don't want to pass through 1♠-1NT (it seems very much worse to try to bid 2♣ with these) or 1♥-1♠, but we've found that we really want relays to start with 1NT (it seems that the one step difference between 1NT vs. 2♣ is extremely important, whereas the one step difference between 1♠ and 1NT is not nearly so valuable; this also has the advantage of getting us on the same relay track over both major suit openings).

FWIW our major openings are basically "rule of 18" through 15 points, "weak" is generally around 5-8 points, "constructive" is like 8-10, "bad invite" is typically 10-12, "good invite" is 12-14, and GF without a fit is 15+ (note that there is some overlap here since we are not big point counters, and hands with decent six card suits can get upgraded by a point or two).

[foobar]

pilun, on 2026-June-26, 21:11, said:

---

East got to show 4-5-3-1.
3NT showed 7 SPs (QPs)
We count stiff kings as 1 SP (David Morgan's recommendation)
In our simple DCB, stop = 0 or 4+ SP (so none or AQ/AK(Q))
We switch to positive with singletons, so
4NT = H-y, S-y, D-y, C-y

so has to be the actual.
♦Q not needed so this time kontrol ask would work nicely as well.
(On the other hand, West might want to avoid 6♥ opposite xxxx, KJxxx, KQx, K)

A bit tougher in methods that ignore stiff kings, like KK relay.

Nick,

The KK Woolberry gadget picks this one up easily. On this hand, RKC ♥ seems like a straightforward decision.


3D (shape) - 4C (Woolberry; RKC in longest suit, ♥)
4S (2 without) - 4N (King ask)
5C (K♣) - 7♥

[pilun]

foobar, on 2026-June-28, 15:51, said:

Nick,

The KK Woolberry gadget picks this one up easily. On this hand, RKC ♥ seems like a straightforward decision.


3D (shape) - 4C (Woolberry; RKC in longest suit, ♥)
4S (2 without) - 4N (King ask)
5C (K♣) - 7♥

Atul,

Not knowing the complete Woolberry method, I suspect that, while it would work on the actual, it might miss out on

Axxx, Kxxxx, KQx, x

and maybe

AQxx, Kxxxx, Kxx, x

AQJx, Kxxxx, xxx, x

[foobar]

 pilun, on 2026-June-28, 16:30, said:

Atul,

Not knowing the complete Woolberry method, I suspect that, while it would work on the actual, it might miss out on

Axxx, Kxxxx, KQx, x

and maybe

AQxx, Kxxxx, Kxx, x

AQJx, Kxxxx, xxx, x

Woolberry is a combination of terminator puppet and specific suit RKC if shape is resolved below 3S. The trick is to pick the best tool, so it's either that or regular DCB.