[mike777]

"n America I assume wages are so low because you are able to exploit the poor and needy or illegal imigrants that are only trying to get a better life and they have to rely on tips"

Yes this is what America is all about, you found out our secret and why millions continue to die trying to come here. Why do we not follow the UK example, are we just cruel, evil or do we just get pleasure from seeing so many not have a decent living standard? If the UK can do it why not the USA?

[asdfg2k]

sceptic, on Apr 11 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

I do not consider tipping as any form of charity or begging, if the money was going into the pocket of the woman serving me, then, I would happily tip when I am happy with the service received.

Agreed

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Things to consider are shared or pooled tips, I find this personally repugnant and distasteful (a tip is for an individual not a team effort and certainly not for the managers or owners of a restaraunt)

I agree with the comment about owners and managers. However, many restaurants have implemented systems which provide for a team approach, and in those circumstances I find it absolutely logical that a customer's tips be directed to the team, rather than to the individual.

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Would you tip someone that was a delight to deal with but served up crap food?the food was paid at a known cost, the service is extra and voluntry

Absolutely.

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wouldyou tip a hairdresser that made you look like a convict?

Of course not. Note the difference here. The individual who might receive the tip is 100% responsible for not only the interaction, but the product.

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No, so tipping in the US is discretionary or mandatory?

Absolutely discretionary.

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if someone is paid such crap wages (in the UK, there are benefits that boost their wages to a decent living standard, this of course could be debated) so why do they need to relay on tips (which are taxed in the UK)

I'm afraid I don't follow this one.

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In America I assume wages are so low because you are able to exploit the poor and needy or illegal imigrants that are only trying to get a better life and they have to rely on tips

This is an utterly false assumption. The wages are so low (whatever that means) only in industries where it is expected that the sum of the wages plus the tips will generate a decent wage. This does, indeed, require that the individual perform their services in a way that ensures the tips will be substantial. If they don't, then they realize that the job is not for them and they find other work. A perfect system in that it encourages those who are good at what they do to continue doing it and it weeds out those who are not capable. Note that this system would not work in a country where the act of tipping was considered inappropriate. But in the US, thankfully, the vast, vast majority understand the system and while every waiter/waitress will have their horror stories about the individuals/groups/families that undertip, the system, in general, works very well to incent the servers and increase the overall enjoyment of the customer.

[asdfg2k]

Yes this is what America is all about, you found out our secret ...
Mike, need I remind you that unless you have exchanged the secret handshake, such admissions are considered taboo? I mean, how are we supposed to keep the secret, uh, secret?

[sceptic]

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This does, indeed, require that the individual perform their services in a way that ensures the tips will be substantial. If they don't, then they realize that the job is not for them and they find other work. A perfect system in that it encourages those who are good at what they do to continue doing it and it weeds out those who are not capable

why not put them on a bonus system then, this seems to work for heads of Industries ?

[pigpenz]

Reading this thread made me think of JLall the bridge pro....do you think his clients will tip him??

[bid_em_up]

Some appear to believe that in the US that all a waiter/waitress earns is what they receive in tips (not true) or in addition to a measly wage that they are being paid (partially true). While true to some degree, the Minimum Wage Act (see link below) requires employers to pay a minimum wage of $5.15/hour. If a waiter, waitress, barber, whatever, does not make an equivalent of this wage, the employer "technically" is required to make up the difference (also listed below). Now, if you care to debate whether or not the current minimim wage is livable/viable compensation for an hours work, that is a different arguement altogether.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/pos...f/minwagebw.pdf

Tip Credit – Employers of “tipped employees” must pay a cash wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a tip credit against their minimum wage obligation. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's cash wage of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Certain other conditions must also be met.

(I believe the certain other conditions reference things like you must be a full-time employee, etc., but I could be mistaken).

Claus, you first state that in Denmark, there is no tipping. Then, in later posts, you go on to state that there is "tipping" but it is MANDANTORY (service fee added) in your taxi-fare example and then you are taxed accordingly to whatever your days receipts were. So there is tipping in Denmark after all, no? Only I, as a consumer, have no choice whether I pay it or not? So your employer (or the waiter/waitresses) is not paying all of your/their wages either? The consumer is still footing the bill for part of it, regardless of whether you call it a tip or a fee. Only in our case, it is not mandantory that I pay it, if I am dissatisfied with the service.

And then, if I understand you correctly, you pay your taxes on whatever you earned for that day. Now, are you allowed to take more than the $11.50 in your example, if someone offered it? If you do, do you list it in your wages as well? Would you be offended if they did offer it? What if they had 8 really heavy bags and asked your assistance in carrying them up 3 flights of stairs? Are you obligated by your mandantory service fee to do so? Or do you leave them at the sidewalk to struggle with their luggage? If you did help carry the luggage up the stairs, would you still be offended if they offered you extra compensation? Would you expect it? (Just curious).

While the minimum wage for a waiter/waitress here is currently $2.13/hr, they usually make well above that (this, of course, assumes they are employed in a business that has reliable traffic) and well above the minimum wage. Do you think they report all of this as taxable income? Of course not. In the end, they are usually much better off than being given a set wage plus a forced tip that they MUST report.

Mind you, there are positions in the US, (hairdressers, strippers/exotic dancers, some casino dealers, and I suppose, some wait staff as well, to name a few that I know of) where they are not paid at all by the employer. That is because they are not considered to be employees of the company, but instead, they are independent contractors. Many hairstyling salons rent their booths out to stylists (yes, the stylist pays them to work there!), and provide them with a stream of clientele. These stylists (many times) are allowed to charge their own rates for their services (not the salons). Should you tip them as well? If you are satisfied with their service, sure. I can certainly envision certain high-end eating establishments (I never could spell restaraunts) charging their wait-staff to work there as independent contractors. The wait staff will gladly do so in these cases, knowing that what they make in tips will more than offset what they are being charged and the end result is still more than they would make elsewhere. Adult entertainment businesses do this on a regular basis (dont ask how I know)

Oh, and one last thing...having to pay the policeman $20 to get correct directions is called bribery, not tipping. I can't believe noone has mentioned this before now.

[bid_em_up]

pigpenz, on Apr 11 2006, 07:21 PM, said:

Reading this thread made me think of JLall the bridge pro....do you think his clients will tip him??

Only if they win.

[Badmonster]

bid_em_up, on Apr 25 2006, 11:15 AM, said:

Adult entertainment businesses do this on a regular basis (dont ask how I know)

Sorry. I have to ask. How do you know?

[barmar]

I wonder how much of the preference towards tipping is due to the fact that cash tips are essentially under the table wages. People who work in tip-based industries are taxed based on the expected tips, but if they make more than expected it's not hard for them to hide it and avoid paying taxes on it.

I have no idea if this really goes on, but intuitively it seems likely to me. I imagine the government puts up with it because we need these people in the service industry.

Does it really matter whether we tip or the service people receive higher base salaries? If 15% tips are abolished, and we expect waiters to make the same wages, prices will have to increase 15% -- the money has to come from somewhere. For the most part, I think it's just tradition that dictates the choice: we're used to tipping, and it's expected, so base salary is allowed to be that much lower. Other societies don't have the same expectation, so prices and wages are adjusted accordingly.

In US society, where tipping is the norm, few people will ever leave no tip; it's a social taboo. If you get seriously bad service, you might reduce the normal 15% tip to as low as 10% (and maybe include a penny to get the point across). Conversely, exceptional service will warrant 20% or more. As far as most of us are concerned, the usual 15% is part of the regular wages paidfor "normal" service.

Is it a silly system? Maybe. I don't know how we got to the state we're in, but trying to make a major change to this in a country as large as the US would be totally impractical. Perhaps it could be accomplished on a state-by-state basis, but there's little incentive and more important things to do (e.g. ensuring that all the waiters get health insurance).