[jillybean]

jdonn, on May 30 2006, 09:00 AM, said:

If undos aren't granted for misclicks, then what in blazes are they granted for?

Edit: I should add, and if your answer to that is 'nothing' then why are they there?

Bidding errors, any undo's when playing at a social table.

the bidding goes:

1♥:4♣
4♦:4NT
5♥:7♠ oops misclick

does anyone really want the opps to play in 7♠ here?

[jdonn]

That's my point. But apparently a few people such as Mark, Paul, and Roland do. I agree not to give undos when it was a careless error as opposed to a misclick, such as underruffing an opponent because you were playing too fast and didn't notice they had ruffed in. But not allowing undos for misclicks strikes me as the sort of litigious, focus on the technicalities attitude that I hate in so many of my fellow Americans away from the bridge table.

Misclicks can even be far more ridiculous than your example, though maybe not much more costly. If my opponent opens 2NT then asks for an undo, telling me privately he meant to open 2♠, how could anyone object to me giving it to him?

[Walddk]

jdonn, on May 30 2006, 05:37 PM, said:

That's my point. But apparently a few people such as Mark, Paul, and Roland do. I agree not to give undos when it was a careless error as opposed to a misclick, such as underruffing an opponent because you were playing too fast and didn't notice they had ruffed in. But not allowing undos for misclicks strikes me as the sort of litigious, focus on the technicalities attitude that I hate in so many of my fellow Americans away from the bridge table.

Misclicks can even be far more ridiculous than your example, though maybe not much more costly. If my opponent opens 2NT then asks for an undo, telling me privately he meant to open 2♠, how could anyone object to me giving it to him?

I grant undos myself in social games; the question is, however, where the limit is regarding a tournament, and not least a pay tourney. I don't know if Josh is in a position to always determine when an undo request is due to a genuine misclick or change of mind.

I agree that certain misclicks are obvious, but I can't always be sure if they all are. And I agree with what's written in the Rules of this Site. You need not explain why you reject an undo.

If an opponent sends me a private message and tells me that he meant to open 2♠ rather than 2NT as per your example, I will certainly grant an undo. I believe that s/he tells the truth until I am proven wrong.

Roland

[jdonn]

Guilty until proven innocent it is then.

In a pay tourney or masterpoint tourney I agree with you (in fact I misclicked playing poker online last night, sigh.) In any other case, it is beyond me why someone would want to profit from something that might be a misclick, whether they are sure or not. If the opponent was lying (or kidding himself) and gets an undo, I'll never know it, and never get something I didn't really deserve in the first place, and everyone will have a better time.

I feel that some people really need to rethink why they are playing this...pause for emphasis....game....in the first place.

[Walddk]

jdonn, on May 30 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

Guilty until proven innocent it is then.

I said exactly the opposite. Let me repeat it for convenience:

"I believe that s/he tells the truth until I am proven wrong".

How you make that "guilty until proven innocent" is beyond my comprehension. Yours too I'm sure when you read it again.

Roland

[jdonn]

It is well within my comprehension. You early very clearly stated your viewpoint, which certainly seems quite reasonable and in agreement with very many other people.

Walddk, on May 29 2006, 12:58 PM, said:

I have to agree with Mark and Paul. I don't mind that the UNDO feature is there, but as a general rule I don't think undo's should be granted for misclicks. Accept that you misclicked and get on with things.

This way you won't have to determine if a "wrong" card was played due to a slip of the hand rather than a slip of the mind.

Roland

The very strong implication, particularly in your final sentence, is that you won't allow undos because you don't want to be in a position where you need to determine if a player is telling the truth when he says he clicked on the wrong card, as opposed to it being a slip of the mind. That is exactly what "Guilty until proven innocent" is. You are treating the play that your opponent wants to take back as a bridge error simply because they can't prove it wasn't one.

Where you said "I believe that s/he tells the truth until I am proven wrong", which yes seems contradictory to your earlier post, you were referring to an example I gave in which it would become completely obvious that your opponent had misclicked. I am glad to see we agree in that case, as I think any reasonable person would. I would sure look like a fool if he held KQJxxx of spades and nothing else and I tried to claim that a 2NT opening bid was not a misclick.

I should have given an example of a much closer case. Say your opponent leads to a KJ and plays one which loses, but immediately clicks undo. Your view as I read it is you wouldn't allow the undo, because you can't be sure whether it was declarer's brain or hand that slipped. The undo request itself, at least as I believe it's intended, is a claim by the player that it was the hand that slipped. I would definitely not go so far as to say you are calling that player a liar, but you are saying that since there is no proof he was telling the truth, you will treat his action as though he were lying.

Yes, I realize I will be duped by people who lie. I am happy to just live with that and not worry about it, and have a pleasant game, and worry about the things that really matter in life.

I absolutely welcome a correction of any assumptions I made about your viewpoint, but I still think the implication from your first post seems clear.

[Walddk]

OK, let me try to make it clear:

1. I don't think the UNDO feature should be there. Then there would never be an argument about misclick or not.

2. Now that it's there I think the requests should be handled with care. If a request seems obvious to me, I will grant an undo without hesitation. However, if it's dubious (like the KJ guess) I will reject.

3. When I or others reject the request, we do not need to explain why we reject, but personally I will always tell the player why I think it would be inappropriate.

Roland

[jdonn]

Ok I wasn't trying to enter a debate about 1 and 3. As for 2 I agree that is how I saw your view, I simply stated it in less flattering terms. But I apologize since 'guilty until proven innocent' was too strong. I should have said something more like 'treated as guilty unless obviously innocent', since yes you do give undos for obvious misclicks. I don't know what we can do but simply agree to disagree and hopefully become or remain friends. Or at least enemies on friendly terms

Boy I do disagree on 1 though, maybe I'll start a new thread on the topic sometime. Saying there should be no undo option so that we wouldn't have this argument (even though you don't need to have the option at your own tables) seems no different than me saying there should be no such drink as Pepsi because then we wouldn't need to argue about whether it is better than Coke.

[Walddk]

jdonn, on May 30 2006, 07:49 PM, said:

Boy I do disagree on 1 though, maybe I'll start a new thread on the topic sometime. Saying there should be no undo option so that we wouldn't have this argument

You misunderstand. There would never be an argument at the table because there is no undo option. Argument here? Sure, any time, also about Pepsi and Coke.

The real thing, man!

Roland

[barmar]

You could do what they do on OKbridge. The Undo button doesn't work in tourneys, only regular tables; in tourneys it just displays a message in the chat area. If someone calls for an undo, we call the director and he tries to determine if it's justified. In general, they never allow undos during play, only during bidding, because misclicks are relatively easy in the OKB interface (the 7♣ button is right above the Pass button in the bid box). They look at the chat record to see how long the delay was between the misbid and the call for an undo.

So if the bid is obviously ridiculous (my partner accidentally opened 5♦ a over the weekend, with a hand that clearly didn't justify it) and the undo request comes right away, they'll generally grant it along with a canned admonishment not to double click, but click on the bid and then click "OK" (which almost nobody follows).