[happy]

Seem to me many players not aware of the possibility to alert and explain IN BID BOX - so opp see it together with bid.

Today opp explained a bid after i passed, said they were just typing and i bid too quick,when TD came to table he saw alert and explain IN bidding box,so even with opp explanation that they were typing and i bid too fast - to him it seem ok.

Is there a way to see when alert and/or explanation were made? with bid or later? so it is clear to TD when it was made?

I was sure alert and explanation need to be together with bid - not after,will appreciate
to find if I was wrong.since opp were really upset for me 'making a fuss' was even told 'dont like to bid and alert same time in case they misclick '

[jillybean]

You’re correct the alert must be made with the bid and ideally the explanation is included too.
The TD should have followed laws 21/16 and asked you if you wanted to change your bid in light of the (late) information. I would have reminded your opps about the need for prompt alerts

[KiwiBridge]

I always explain with the alert and wish it could be made mandatory

[blackshoe]

Then there's no purpose in alerting, per se. Just explain it.

[paulg]

I advise my BIL session that the most important thing is to alert a call as you make it and that the explanation should be done second. This means that the next player will not bid and then find the previous call was alerted.

It is always unfortunate when people make a call and then are typing an explanation when the next player calls. Clearly they are trying to disclose their methods.

Education on best practice is the only answer, and to be tolerant of those who are not so familiar with the interface but are trying hard to provide full disclosure.

On the same topic, those (of use) with FD cards should be alerting calls too. FD's pop up explanation is great but people may fail to spot it, or its significance, unless an alert is also provided in the bidding box.

Paul

[barmar]

Why do you advise them to explain second? What's wrong with typing the explanation BEFORE you finish clicking on the bids?

If there's no explanation provided immediately when the bid and alert appear, I assume that the player isn't planning on explaining unless one of us asks for it.

[hrothgar]

barmar, on Mar 28 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

Why do you advise them to explain second? What's wrong with typing the explanation BEFORE you finish clicking on the bids?

If there's no explanation provided immediately when the bid and alert appear, I assume that the player isn't planning on explaining unless one of us asks for it.

1. The text box which is bundled into the bidding window can't accept very many characters. Trying to input any useful amount of information into this window is an exercise in futility. In contrast, the normal chat system permits quite a lot fo data to be input.

2. Typing long text strings introduces significant amount of UI

[jdonn]

hrothgar, on Mar 28 2007, 01:25 PM, said:

barmar, on Mar 28 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

Why do you advise them to explain second?  What's wrong with typing the explanation BEFORE you finish clicking on the bids?

If there's no explanation provided immediately when the bid and alert appear, I assume that the player isn't planning on explaining unless one of us asks for it.

1. The text box which is bundled into the bidding window can't accept very many characters. Trying to input any useful amount of information into this window is an exercise in futility. In contrast, the normal chat system permits quite a lot fo data to be input.

2. Typing long text strings introduces significant amount of UI

In principle I agree with you but it seems like someone could just type in a very brief explanation, then elaborate in the chat box. I see no harm in that approach.

In practice anyway most explanations (particularly for BIL) are going to be something like "4+!h" or "15-17, 0-2!s", it is hardly difficult or time consuming to type these in the alert box, particularly if players take advantage of the suit symbols.

To your point 2, the same UI is often available when there is a long pause after the alerted bid, so nothing is gained by waiting.

[barmar]

Actually, the UI is different. The partner of the explainer can't tell whether the pause is due to his partner typing an explanation or RHO thinking about his bid. It's similar to bidding with screens -- you know that it took a long time for the tray to come back, but you don't know which player on the other side of the screen was responsible for the delay.

[jdonn]

barmar, on Mar 28 2007, 01:37 PM, said:

Actually, the UI is different. The partner of the explainer can't tell whether the pause is due to his partner typing an explanation or RHO thinking about his bid. It's similar to bidding with screens -- you know that it took a long time for the tray to come back, but you don't know which player on the other side of the screen was responsible for the delay.

That will often be true and often be untrue.

Bid pass bid pass, bid pass bid pass, bid pass bid pass, bid pass (long hesitation somewhere before the pass)

Who do you think hesitated, more likely?

[paulg]

barmar, on Mar 28 2007, 07:19 PM, said:

Why do you advise them to explain second?  What's wrong with typing the explanation BEFORE you finish clicking on the bids?

If there's no explanation provided immediately when the bid and alert appear, I assume that the player isn't planning on explaining unless one of us asks for it.

Because a fair number of them forget to alert and the next person bids while they are typing their explanation.

Inexperienced players also tend to type slower, either because they are unsure what they should really put or they are entering War and Peace. They don't have jdonn's succinctness. I certainly don't wish to criticise their explaining, but their alerting tends to be poor so this is the aspect I focus on.

[jillybean]

happy, on Mar 27 2007, 04:59 PM, said:

was even told  'dont like to bid and alert same time in case they misclick '

I havent heard this before

Paul, I think you should encourage your students to make the alert and explanation together and/or simplify their systems so that they dont need to be typing lines of information into the alert box.

[mycroft]

Play a Non-Standard System for a while.

1 Alert D becomes muscle memory pretty quickly.

Because I type 70wpm, and the explanations are pretty straightforward,

1 Alert 11-15, 2+!D D is also pretty quick.

Long pause typing presents UI? Well, yeah, but after 1C - (pause) 1H; 1S - (pause) 2C; 2S - (pause) 3C, we all know what's going on.

Yes, I will give a full explanation to <-> if I need to; sometimes:
2 Alert 11-15 short !D, more... D followed by
three-suited, short diamonds: 4315, 3415, 4414, 4405
works out quite well.

Whatever serves. Do notice that explaining while bidding also (usually) kills the "please explain" = "partner, I've got something" game.

Michael.

[blackshoe]

What, just out of curiousity, do BBO's regulations say about alerts and explanations?

[hrothgar]

blackshoe, on Mar 29 2007, 02:02 AM, said:

What, just out of curiousity, do BBO's regulations say about alerts and explanations?

For anything "formal", authority devolves to the sponsoring organization. If you are playing in an ACBL tournament, you use ACBL regulations. If you're playing in a HomeBase event, you use HomeBase rules.

There are lots of informal tables in play in BBO. From my perspective, the only real regulations here are a vague hope that common sense, sanity, and good manners will prevail.

[jillybean]

BBO rules of the site say this about alerts (bold text from BBO)

Quote

Guidelines for Alerts:

All members should understand that, due to the fact that we have members from all over the world as well as members of all levels of ability and experience, not all players will afgree on which bids should be considered “standard”

The management of BBO is not going to get involved with trying to make rules in this area. It is up to our members to try their best to provide their opponents with information that may be helpful to them. Always remember that is against the laws and spirit to conceal information about your partnership agreements from your opponents.

The BBO software is designed so that players alert their own bids. This is called “self-alerting” and it is opposite to the approach that is used in live bridge clubs and tournaments. If you have any doubt as to whether one of your bids should be alerted or not, it is appropriate to alert.

If an opponent asks you for the meaning of one of your bids, you are expected to answer the politely, even if you think the answer is obvious. An appropriate answer can be ‘I have never discussed this with my partner”. You do not have to tell the opponents how you intend you bid – only what you have agreed with your partner. It is inappropriate to use chat to explain your bids to your partner unless you get permission from the opponents first.

No guidelines are given to the timing of an alert but given the instantaneous nature of online bridge it is logical to include the alert with the bid and I think also the explanation.

[blackshoe]

Since you are alerting your own bid, and since your LHO is entitled to receive the alert in sufficient time for him to consider its implications (and ask for an explanation if he so desires), I think it's important to, as you say, include the alert with the bid. But the guidelines you quote imply that it is the alert that's important - and that if the opponents want an explanation, they should ask. So I think if attempting to include an explanation with the alert and the bid takes more than a second or three, the explanation should be deferred until an opponent (at his turn to call) asks.

[Jacki]

In ACBL games alerts should be given at the time they are made. If a bid is made and THEN alerted, it's often too late since the player's LHO has most likely already made his bid.

Ideally explanations should be included with the alert, but the most important part is the alert itself. Explanations can come after the bid and alert, but alerts can't come after the bid without potential harm to the opponents.

If an unalerted or late alerted bid causes damage to the opponents then an adjustment is called for and is made....IF the TD is so informed.

It's very simple to do this, just click on the alert button before clicking on the bid, then they come out together. If players do not click on the alert button before the bid, even though they think they have, and maintain they have immediately alerted, speed of computers and speed of internet connections can and do delay the alert getting to the table to be seen by the next bidder before he makes his call.

Thanks for starting this topic, I hope a lot of people read it since this is a continuing problem with people thinking they're doing what they should do in alerting and not knowing that timing is an issue.

First click on alert, second click on bid. No problem

Jacki

[jikl]

I think HoneBase use WBF rules, not HomeBase Rules

Sean