[awm]

You agree to play a 2♣ response to 1♦ as not necessarily forcing to game. How would you assume this works with a good partner if not discussed in detail? What's your preference if you play this method?

[jtfanclub]

awm, on Jan 16 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

You agree to play a 2♣ response to 1♦ as not necessarily forcing to game. How would you assume this works with a good partner if not discussed in detail? What's your preference if you play this method?

How about, for example:

2♦: F1 balanced or diamonds
2♥/2♠: F1 strength in suit for NT purposes.
2NT: F1 Length and strength in clubs.
3♣: GF agrees clubs no singleton/void.
3♦: GF club shortness
3♥/3♠ Splinter

Or something like that.

Responder's rebid of 2[NT] and 3♣ are both pass-or-correct-one-up (ie., 2NT denies diamond support, 3♣ promises it).

Maybe I'm not understanding the question correctly. In SAYC, after the auction 1♥-2♣ all opener's immediate rebids below game are F1 but not GF. But your choices seem to imply that you expect after 1♦-2♣ all bids are either not forcing or game forcing.

I'm not saying the system above is all that and a bag of chips, but your survey seems to imply that such a system is impossible.

[kenrexford]

If the only NGF option is a 3♣ rebid, I'd probably use the same transfer approach that I use for GF, but Opener would bid 3♣ with a passable diamond rebid or 3♦ with a GF diamond rebid, if that makes sense.

[lexlogan]

My preference is 2♦ F1, 5+; 2M F1, does not promise any extra (routine with 4432, 4333, 4342, etc.), 2NT NF, 3♣ GF. 2M could have 5+ diamonds if strong:
1♦-2♣-2♥-2NT-3♦ would be 15+, 4-5+ .

[Gerben42]

I have posted this some time before I think, here it is again:

1♦ - 2♣ trick

With a pickup partner 2NT is NF, 3♣ is NF, and with a hand from last Monday you are just stuck:

Scoring: MP

---

1♦ - 2♣ - ?

(If you don't like this opening, change to whatever you need to have the same problem)

Anyway it continued

2♥ - 3♥
4♣ - 4NT

Urgs...

[gwnn]

What do you mean Gerben, you bid 1♣, partner replies 2♣, invmin. wtp?

[helene_t]

I cannot get this playable without either playing MAFIA or making 2♣ GF. I have been playing this for years and I hate it. You never know when opener's 2M is a 4-card and when it's showing a stopper.

I voted 2♦ waiting and all other's GF. Then at least opener doesn't have to fake 2M with club support just to create a force. But we still have the same problem with responder's second call, I think.

[Gerben42]

Quote

What do you mean Gerben, you bid 1♣, partner replies 2♣, invmin. wtp?

No you open 1♦, and if you don't you can change the hand so that you do. After inverted minors I show suits on the 2-level, stoppers on the 3-level (if you have decided to try for 3N).

[FrancesHinden]

I don't know if this counts as 'a lot' of artificial bids, but with one partner I play

2♦ - nat, NF 5+ diamonds (not a weak NT)
2♥ - 12/14 or 18/19 balanced (over which 2NT is NF)
2♠ - nat reverse FG
2NT - heart reverse FG
3♣ - NF

Not very artificial - just swapping the 2H and 2NT calls round so you can both play in 2NT with minimum values and drive game with a strong balanced hand

(we add a bit more artificiality after the 2H rebid, but it's not really necessary)

With the other partner I play
2♦ - F1, cannot bid anything else
2♥ - 4441 short clubs
2♠ - forcing club raise
2NT - 18-19 balanced

but this probably counds as 'lots of artificial bids'

[bhall]

Berkeley Modern (ca. 1960): 4cM, 16-18 NT, not canape'
2♦ not forcing but seldom passed
2M natural GF
2N 12-13 balanced
3♣ not forcing but seldom passed (frequently high honor-xx)
3N 14-15 balanced

Kaplan-Sheinwold (ca.1958): 2♣ "promised" another bid over 2♦, raise was forcing

Playing 4cM and 15-17 NT, I have used 2N artificial GF with some success, other rebids as in Berkeley Modern.

[pclayton]

I won't respond to the other thread, because I don't play 1♦ - 2♣ as a natural GF with anyone currently.

With Harvey we play 1♦ - 2♣ as inv+. Opener can pass 3♣, but only if opener rebids 2♦. The responses are:

2♦ = unbalanced minimum or waiting
2♥ / 2♠ = natural, unbalanced, at least K better than a minimum or 5-6
2N = 15-17 balanced
3♣ = not a dead minimum, but club support
3♦ = natural, good suit, GF
3♥ / 3♠ = splinters
3N = 18-19 balanced
4♣ = slam try

[jtfanclub]

helene_t, on Jan 17 2008, 04:17 AM, said:

I cannot get this playable without either playing MAFIA or making 2♣ GF. I have been playing this for years and I hate it. You never know when opener's 2M is a 4-card and when it's showing a stopper.

I don't worry much about whether it's a 4 card suit or stopper. If I have a 4 card major and 5 clubs, I bid 2♣ with a GF response and 1M with less. So the auction....

1♦-2♣-2♥-3♥

is a GF. If I don't have a 4 card major, why do I care if it's 4 card or stoppers?

[awm]

Looking at Phil's post, I suppose playing weak notrumps simplifies things in some ways, since the big problem is what to do with the weak notrumps (if 2NT is forcing, they have to bid something else; if 2NT is NF you have to bid something else with balanced 14).

My preference is to play that a 2♦ rebid is simply waiting, and all other bids are forcing to game. This solves the "3♣ raise" problem and lets you keep the auction low with 18/19 balanced. There is some issue finding major fits over 1♦-2♣-2♦ since responder has to bid 2M to force in some cases (3♣ would be NF) but this is partially solved by playing strong jump shift in clubs and one can always bid 1♦-2♣-2♦-2M-3M-3NT and play there (not to mention the 4-3 fit is right sometimes).

[inquiry]

I play kokish over 1D-2C, and when playing this as not game force, it is not game force only very rarely... 1D-2C-3C (the weak raise can be passed) and 1D-2C-2NT might be passed.

An interesting factoid. I used Bridgebrowser to look at 30,538 auctions that began

1D-p-2C-p
?

The auction died less than game only 4038 times averaging -1.54 imps and 43.71% (for this, i assumed 4C and 4D as "not game".. although many who play 2C as GF, actually play it as pseudoGF (thus to 4m). If we throw out the 4C/4D contract, there were 3823 non-game contracts, that averaged... -1.50 imps and 43.83%.

This doesn't say the players stopping short of game necessarily did the wrong thing. Many of those that stopped short of game clearly should not have. For example, 191 of them held 13 hcp as responder. To pass short of game when responder held 13 hcp was not very good -2.10 imps and 40.78%

120 hands held 14 hcp, this was -5.33 imps and 27.60%
61 hands held 15 hcp, this was -5.38 imps and 20.50%
The most hcp responder held was 21 hcp!!!

If we remove all the hands with 13 hcp or more from the didn't bid game pile, and the results improve a little bit, with from 1 to 12 hcp (yes, there was some who bid 2C with one hcp, and 4 who bid it with 3 hcp, and 18 who bid it wiht 4 hcp), the average becomes -1.24 imp and 45.45 mp.

The fact is, the only time staying out of game was +imps and above 50% based upon the number of hcp that responder held was when he held 4 hcp!!! The 10 imp hands averaged +0.13 and the MP% was 50.84%. Of the non-game contracts, 3C averaged best, at -1.21 imps and 46.43% (I ignore the less than 6 hcp hands for this comparison).

All this doesn't mean playing it as non-gameforce is a bad idea. Just try to figure out what type of hands you want to stay out of game on...For the record, playing 2NT was a bad contract on average (-1.44 and 45%), it only did well when taking exactly 8 tricks, although mp score was ok for 9, and 10 tricks (but less than the mp score for 8, which was 62.35%).

Doubt any of this helps, but it was just a fun way to waste an hour checking into it.



If we look closer at the 3C contracts (754 of them --- 853 if we include the 13+ hands), when responder held 8 or less hcp, it turned out well for playing in 3C, and when he held 9 hcp it roughly broke even. When responder had 10 to 12 hcp it turned out very bad.

[whereagles]

I play this, which is similar to french standard

1♦ 2♣
2♦ = waiting bid with 5+ cards and a min hand
2M = reverse, 54 and 15+ hcp
2NT = good 13 to 14 (would open 1 CLUB with 12 or bad 13)
3♣ = natural, GF with 15+
3M = splinter with 18+ (with less just bid 3♣)

Follow ups are natural. After 2♦ we have
1♦ 2♣
2♦ ...??

2M = natural, responder's reverse, 54 and GF.
2NT = natural 10-11, NF (now opener can bid 3♦ NF with broken suit)
3♣ = natural 10-11, NF with broken suit (with good suit, just bid 3NT)
3♦ = forcing raise, asks for stoppers (with an inv hand bid 1♦-3♣)

[Gerben42]

Quote

2NT = good 13 to 14 (would open 1 CLUB with 12 or bad 13)

?! Even on a 3442 or so?

[whereagles]

Gerben42, on Jan 19 2008, 03:30 PM, said:

Quote

2NT = good 13 to 14 (would open 1 CLUB with 12 or bad 13)

?! Even on a 3442 or so?

Yes. This isn't main stream, though. Even in France.