[Cascade]

rogerclee, on Feb 5 2008, 09:56 PM, said:

Cascade, on Feb 5 2008, 02:57 AM, said:

What does 2♦ is game force mean?  Does that mean you play 2♥ as some sort of negative?

Yes. This is the most common treatment around the states.

2D = GF, about any K or two Q's
2H = broke

2D catch-all is probably the second most popular treatment, but I may have these two mixed up. I can say with some confidence that in southern California, the first is more popular.

If you describe 2♦ as GF does that mean that 2♣ was not GF? I am interested in auctions that can stop somewhere other than after a 2NT rebid by opener (or maybe via a transfer after 2NT by opener).

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on Feb 5 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

So 4♠ is wide-range: opener has to fear a worse hand... worse spades and no Ace.. we'd have bid the same way with Jxxxx KJxx xx xx for example.

This in turn means that I think we have to take a chance here: we have to make a move, and 5♥ is the only one possible.

Not sure if I agree with this sentiment

From my perspective, there are two big concerns with the spade slam

The first the question of a Diamond control
The second is the quality of partner's trump support

I'm not sure whether its possible to cover both bases.

A 5♥ cue will focus partner's attention on a Diamond control, but doesn't leave room to ask about Spade support.

A 5♠ raise will focus partner's attention on the trump suit, but it ignores Diamonds completely

If I only get information about one or the other, I rather know about the trump suit. I'm going to play a Spade slam. I can't dodge Spade losers.

If, however, I end up in 6♠ off two cashing Diamonds there is always the chance that the opponents will misdefend. Maybe the the Diamond honors are split. Maybe RHO is sitting on AK of Diamonds but LHO will lead a Heart. I'm only really screwed if LHO happens to have the AK of Diamonds and partner tables xx or some such...

[mike777]

rogerclee, on Feb 4 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

IMPS, White

♠QT8xx ♥Axx ♦Txx ♣xx

Uncontested, partner opens

2C-2D*
3C-3S
4S-?

2D is GF, and that's all you know. If it matters to you, you don't play Kokish. Partner does not open 2C just because he had 20 points and was afraid you'd pass.

5H

I think partner promises a 3 loser hand and it seems I got 1-2 winners so I move on.

[cherdano]

hrothgar, on Feb 5 2008, 12:54 PM, said:

mikeh, on Feb 5 2008, 08:02 PM, said:

So 4♠ is wide-range: opener has to fear a worse hand... worse spades and no Ace.. we'd have bid the same way with Jxxxx KJxx xx xx for example.

This in turn means that I think we have to take a chance here: we have to make a move, and 5♥ is the only one possible.

Not sure if I agree with this sentiment

From my perspective, there are two big concerns with the spade slam

The first the question of a Diamond control
The second is the quality of partner's trump support

I'm not sure whether its possible to cover both bases.

A 5♥ cue will focus partner's attention on a Diamond control, but doesn't leave room to ask about Spade support.

A 5♠ raise will focus partner's attention on the trump suit, but it ignores Diamonds completely

If I only get information about one or the other, I rather know about the trump suit. I'm going to play a Spade slam. I can't dodge Spade losers.

If, however, I end up in 6♠ off two cashing Diamonds there is always the chance that the opponents will misdefend. Maybe the the Diamond honors are split. Maybe RHO is sitting on AK of Diamonds but LHO will lead a Heart. I'm only really screwed if LHO happens to have the AK of Diamonds and partner tables xx or some such...

IMO you are thinking of this auction the wrong way. If we make a slam try, partner knows roughly how good we are -- better than a minimum 2♦, but not good enough to force to slam. That's roughly two useful cards. We have no idea where partner's cards are.

Hence we should not be asking questions, but showing our hand. 5♥ denies cards in the minors, shows a heart cards, and likely a spade card. Partner will be in a good position to decide.
(Conversely, a 5♠ bid would show good trumps and nothing to cue outside.)

[han]

Agree with Arend on that.

[Cascade]

I think 5♥ showing a heart card and 5♠ showing good trumps with nothing to cue is fairly standard and probably should apply on this auction.

However there are often two types of slam hand at this level:

1. Where you need extra values for slam

2. Where you need just a specific control for slam

We have been experimenting with lots of simply quantitative raises to 5Major to ask for general extras (or partner do you like your hand) when we do not have the room to explore more scientifically at a lower level. So far it has worked reasonably well for us.

[rogerclee]

Cascade, on Feb 5 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

I am interested in auctions that can stop somewhere other than after a 2NT rebid by opener (or maybe via a transfer after 2NT by opener).Af

"Standard" is to play 2C openers forcing through 2N. So If the auction starts

2C-2H
2S-?

Responder is forced to bid on xx xxx xxxx xxxx.

My preferred agreement after 2C-2H is less aggressive about bidding games, and I play that all rebids are NF (except 3H/3S) by the 2C-opener but sort of suggest strongly for partner to bid if he can. This has come up a few times and despite the "this is stupid" reactions I usually get from people, it has paid off more than not for me.

[mikeh]

Cascade, on Feb 5 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

If you describe 2♦ as GF does that mean that 2♣ was not GF?  I am interested in auctions that can stop somewhere other than after a 2NT rebid by opener (or maybe via a transfer after 2NT by opener).

I think that the std treatment for 2♥ immediate 2nd negative, and thus 2♦ as gf, results in the 2♣ auction being forcing to 2N, if opener rebids 2N, or to 3♠ if opener bids 2♠, or to 4 minor if opener bids 3minor or to game if opener bids 3♥.

This is because opener may have a pure gf 2-suiter, so that the partnership cannot allow the auction to proceed 2♣ 2♥ 3♥ pass.

In my partnerships, the result is that we tend to need stronger hands for a minimum 2♣ opener with hearts than we do with spades. We also tend to open or rebid 2N (after a 2♣ opening) on many borderline hands with 5 hearts, whereas we are less likely to conceal a 5 card spade suit.

So 2♣ 2♥ 2♠: we can stop in 3♠ but not below that

2♣ 2♥ 2N: obviously passable, and we can get out over stayman or transfers

2♣ 2♥ 3♣/♦: forcing to 3N or 4 of the minor

2♣ 2♥ 3♥: game force